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View Poll Results: Do you believe in the farmacy trend?

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  • I'm a hippy and I'm proud of it. Also, I have proof it works. No aluminum DO for me!

    3 7.69%
  • I'm kind of a hippy, but I was brought up that way, and/or I like moral aspects of the trend.

    4 10.26%
  • This is a thing? Who's Jenny McCarthy? I mean, I guess both are fine.

    4 10.26%
  • Science trumps turnips all day. Beets and apples won't keep you from having eczema hunny, sorry.

    24 61.54%
  • I don't really care at all. I can't afford either of them anyways.

    4 10.26%
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Thread: Nature VS Modern Medicine and weeding out what truly works.

  1. #1
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Default Nature VS Modern Medicine and weeding out what truly works.

    I've seen this really huge trend lately where people just believe what they want to believe. No one looks at studies being done in these areas, no one seems to really care if data exists. Stoners frequently post about how someone claimed they gave their kid cannbis oil on the pacifier and a brain tumor diminished and it must be because of the cannabis.. Jenny McCarthy cries about vaccines.. and modern medicine had to have extensive studies showing that kangaroo care (a cheaper--aka free--, more viable alternative to incubators) beat incubators and analgesia when it came to preterm infants becoming more viable.

    There's this wonderful aspect of medicine where it is discovering new things, and trying things out.. and merging old world ideas with new world concepts.

    Yet, there are plenty of people that would say they get all of their medicine from eating organic food. That they eat vegan and that cures them of all their ailments. There's this notion from these websites that circulate frequently that doctors are the 'bad guys', as if they go through 12 years of school to put up with grumpy, unappreciative people because they're going to make a fortune off of these people, or as if one bad doctor makes the whole lot of them quacks.

    I had a girl the other day talk about how terrible aluminum is for you. When I told her if she's ever taken even one anti-headache medicine even as a baby that she's already had more aluminum in her system than using deodorant for a year will ever cause she thinks I'm going ballistic. I told her vegetables don't "detox" the body like that--aluminum stays forever pretty much.

    I find the idea inspiring for an individual--but dangerous for the masses. No one is going to get hurt thinking their deodorant is bad for them. They just aren't. It doesn't hurt anything. But then when they're told they need this hypertension medicine otherwise their heart will fail, and they think it's poison because someone told them there's aluminium in all modern medicines... non-compliance leads to worse issues. There are people using people's terrible cancer stories to push their agenda. Raw vegan eaters saying that cancer can be cured with diet alone... and talking online about how sad they felt for cancer deaths when they could have just eaten more bananas.

    Doctors have preached for a long, long time now that sleep, water, exercise, a wholesome diet, and emotional support are all important approaches to health. But clearly they aren't enough.. and they cannot make grown people do any of those things. So they do what they CAN for those people--and frequently that means more medicine. It's not like they're the life police. And that somehow has gotten them a terrible rep the past few years. At the VA they were delighted that I didn't want surgery right away, and instead picked a more rigorous and annoying but less invasive physical therapy option. There are breakthroughs in modern medicine that can only be accounted for with things like medicines and vaccines, though, and the two things I think can work in great order with one another... if people didn't make it such an us vs them thing.

    This isn't even counting the fact that I feel all of this detox mumbo-jumbo is just people trying to make bucks off expensive over priced organic food and off of people that want to believe there's a new, cool way of doing things based on ancestors and some Native American rawhide scroll or something.

    And there's vague things as well that we don't really know the effects of... people believe x is poisonous and hormone-acting, and it might very well be true.. antibiotics are creating superbugs, and that's true as well.. so there's pushes in the right direction for safer food as a result of people who walk with these 'farmacy' ideals.

    Has anyone else noticed this trend lately? Have you gotten caught up in the mix of it all? For those that believe in detoxing.. is it a purely spiritual thing, or do you believe there is evidence for it physiologically? I don't mean you switched from processed food to whole foods and got better.. I mean you stopped all aluminum coming into your body and you noticed that you no longer have headaches, nausea, etc. etc. Or you put a chlorine filter in your shower and started drinking 'alkalizing water' and now your foot fungus is gone. That sort of thing. Do you believe the placebo affect had any power in this?

    Anyone want to vent about their stupid, but sweet friend that believes x or y, or brags about how a vaccine has never touched them and they're super healthy because kale is the best thing since dinosaurs can post as well.
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    penis Array prplchknz's Avatar
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    diet and lifestyle is good in the prevention of certain diseases, there's science that backs that up. But it's not 100% guaranteed that you won't get those dieseases if you eat certain foods. Once you're diseased you need conventional medicine. like if I had a cancer I'm not going to eat a bunch of blueberries in hopes it get rid of the cancer. I'd go to a doctor get radiation and chemo ect. I might eat a lot of blueberry's because I like blueberries. Oh and I believe detoxing is BS. At least what i've read, your body: if you're a healthy adult which most people who do these detoxes are. your body has a great natural filtration system that gets rid of toxins. detoxes are scams. I'm sorry unless a doctor says to me you have a bad kidney or liver and your body isn't getting rid of toxins properly you need to do a detox I'm not wasting my money.

    the problem with everything is there's truths and lies to both sides of everything, and it's really hard to know who to believe
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    @kyuuei Have you read Do You Believe in Magic? by Dr. Paul Offit?
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

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    deplorable basketcase Array Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    Jenny McCarthy cries about vaccines.. and modern medicine had to have extensive studies showing that kangaroo care (a cheaper--aka free--, more viable alternative to incubators) beat incubators and analgesia when it came to preterm infants becoming more viable.
    It used to be that many vaccines used mercury as a preservative (thimerosal) and mercury is a known toxin. Thimerosal is still used in some flu vaccines. It's also true that vaccines do kill and seriously harm some people. For example:

    Sadly, since the Tembenis case, the government has not — at least publicly — done much to answer the questions that it and many others pose: why are the vast majority of kids apparently vaccinated safely, but a minority become seriously ill, brain-damaged or even die?
    The Search for Safer Vaccines

    A recent paper reports that there is a link between Type I diabetes and vaccines:

    "Evidence that vaccines cause type 1 diabetes has been well established. Data from a large prospective clinical trial of the
    Haemophilus vaccine [4] as well as epidemiology data [5] support vaccines as a major causative agent for type 1 diabetes. The data from
    the clinical trial validates an animal toxicity model [4]. The findings were verified by others [6]. Discontinuation of vaccines has been
    repeatedly shown to be followed by declines in the rates of type 1 diabetes [5,7]. Evidence that vaccines cause type 2 diabetes, obesity
    and metabolic syndrome has been reviewed recently [2]. Evidence includes the observation that the discontinuation of school age BCG
    vaccination in Japan was followed by a decrease in type 2 diabetes in children in Japan [8]."

    Source: J Barthelow Classen, Review of Vaccine Induced Immune Overload and the Resulting Epidemics of Type 1 Diabetes and Metabolic Syndrome, Emphasis on Explaining the Recent Accelerations in the Risk of Prediabetes and other Immune Mediated Diseases, J Mol Genet Med 2014, S1:025

    My position is to avoid all elements that are not naturally found in the body. I avoid Aluminum, Mercury, Arsenic, and Fluoride by using filtered water.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    Doctors have preached for a long, long time now that sleep, water, exercise, a wholesome diet, and emotional support are all important approaches to health. But clearly they aren't enough.. and they cannot make grown people do any of those things. So they do what they CAN for those people--and frequently that means more medicine.
    My view is that most doctors are ignorant of the link between nutrition and certain illnesses (like eczema, psoriasis) and that good nutrition can help with certain illnesses. They diagnose and then treat the symptom using a drug. They don't identify the underlying cause.
    "Libertarians are beacons of truth; we are not tractor beams of truth. Please do not blame us for not fixing your screw-ups." wise sayings of Tellenbach the Transcendant Sage, Vol. 4.
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  5. #5
    likes this Array gromit's Avatar
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    What really bugs me is the correlation = causality fallacy. Sure some of them warrant further study, but please, don't change your life in dangerous ways just bc two things APPEAR related. There was an amazing/hilarious site circulating around recently wtih some of these ridiculous correlations.



    AHHH HONEY BEES ARE DYING OUT... AND IT'S MAKING KIDS DO DRUGS!!!!!!!!!!!!




    OMG NICOLAS CAGE CAUSES DROWNING!!!
    sorry ... couldn't resist with this one @The Ü™




    Organic food causes autism.

    Fact.


    I viewed a graph about that very thing once!

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  6. #6
    likes this Array gromit's Avatar
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    Anyway, I didn't vote bc didn't really agree with any of the options. But I'd say preventative care is at least 50% of health. So many diseases (in developed countries) are "preventative", and we should be placing a greater emphasis on the thigns you mention @kyuuei. In one of my courses I asked why health insurances weren't giving incentives for this type of behavior, and the professor replied that they don't really have much motivation to do that, since people tend to change insurance providers several times throughout their lives, so there isn't as big a payoff to the providers. Bummer...

    But I agree there is obviously a time and place for healthcare, surgeries, medications, etc. I'm pretty split between the two approaches.

    It is like you say, so many ppl don't do those simple things over the course of their lifetime, so healthcare providers try to do their best with what they have to work with. By the time people come in to see them, they have to resort to drugs, surgeries, etc.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.
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  7. #7
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    It used to be that many vaccines used mercury as a preservative (thimerosal) and mercury is a known toxin. Thimerosal is still used in some flu vaccines. It's also true that vaccines do kill and seriously harm some people. For example: ....
    Vaccines are pretty straight forward in their approach. Each vaccine website will give the list of side effects and frequency of it--and a quick trip to the library will show percentages of success and percentages of side effects shown. In the world of medicine a 80-98% percent success rating is far, far better than the 50% death rates of getting some of the diseases and the even higher percentages of dealing with long term side effects of things like polio.

    There are people who feel whooping cough isn't "that dangerous" for children now-a-days because they simply weren't around any children who ever had it or grew up around it.. They read something saying not all children die of it, and they're convinced that things like varicella and whooping cough are diseases we've 'outgrown' and have immunities against.. and that really isn't the case. People still die of the flu all the time.. and we're seeing outbreaks all the time. We can't vaccinate everything, but on a global scale protecting people with vaccines has shown more success rates than any study ever ever done on natural ways of curing rubella or whooping cough.

    My position is to avoid all elements that are not naturally found in the body. I avoid Aluminum, Mercury, Arsenic, and Fluoride by using filtered water.
    Which, like I said, there's nothing inherently wrong with that for you in particular. You do what you feel is healthy for you... but can you say that you've never, ever had aluminum before? THat your parents did not give you baby aspirins, or children's tylenol when you were a little one? No tap water when you were a kid? No eating stuff you shouldn't have, or no accidentally swallowing coins? Nothing? .. I doubt it. And that stuff is still in your body, aluminum particularly.. and, I suspect, you're healthy enough, and if not, it wasn't caused by a baby tylenol 15-20 years ago.

    My view is that most doctors are ignorant of the link between nutrition and certain illnesses (like eczema, psoriasis) and that good nutrition can help with certain illnesses. They diagnose and then treat the symptom using a drug. They don't identify the underlying cause.
    Doctors are humans. And people are just as stubborn as you seem to be on your conviction. If people don't want to believe something is causing an illness, they simply won't. You can tell them all day fluoride destroys their teeth. If they don't believe it does.. you're not out of a job by saying, "Well, fuck it then, you can just lose your teeth." You are as a doctor though. You treat it to the PATIENT'S satisfaction. They aren't going to tell you, "well if you don't like my aluminum-laced drugs then gtfo my office" because that's not really the right answer.. And after you hear 80% of your population come in and say, "Doc, it is not feasible for me to buy expensive hippy stuff but I still need to treat my eczema" you stop trying to push things on people. You give them what they want--because that's what they feel they need, and that's all you can do sometimes. Not everyone can avoid tap water.. not everyone can afford all natural expensive medicines and supplements and organic foods. It's not available. You can't leave out a big portion of the population just because you think you have the right answer.

    It isn't really fair to aim at the doctors for that. I always tell my hippy friends to become doctors themselves if they think it's such a bullshit field lately.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  8. #8
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    It is like you say, so many ppl don't do those simple things over the course of their lifetime, so healthcare providers try to do their best with what they have to work with. By the time people come in to see them, they have to resort to drugs, surgeries, etc.
    I think what drives me so bananas about the whole movement is that they cherry pick the science. It isn't like modern medicine doesn't do that too.. so disclaimer there.. but it is the science and studies over time that say, "Hey, eating more fibrous greens is great for your body. Here's the proof: all these studies we did, and got peer reviewed on, with objective data collection. You can reduce cancer by like 50%!" And "Hey, we tested kale, and turns out it has far more of these nutrients than lettuce does." And they're okay with all of that.

    But then you say, "Hey, you can reduce your chances of getting this disease that could kill your baby if you contract it by like 95%, we proved it in all of these studies" and everyone screams "OMG LOOK AT THAT 5%!? POISON I TELL YOU!" It boggles me that it seems like they REALLY care about evidence and science, but they really feel like those two things are the enemy.. instead of just admitting these are personal/emotional convictions based on spirituality and personal conviction and so the evidence shouldn't matter. At least it would make sense to say vaccines are against a religion.. it makes more sense than bringing up well-reported side effects and talking about them as if they're in the forefront.

    And they send that paranoia and personal emotion out into the world as if it were science and backed.. and it's a half-truth that people believe because they don't want to be uninformed and uneducated (despite usually being so.. no offense world.. I'm in that boat too).

    Oh, and this girl's video drives me bananas:
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  9. #9
    deplorable basketcase Array Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    We can't vaccinate everything, but on a global scale protecting people with vaccines has shown more success rates than any study ever ever done on natural ways of curing rubella or whooping cough.
    I'm in support of vaccines, but vaccines should not contain mercury. I think we should thank people like Jenny McCarthy for bringing pressure to the pharmaceutical industry to produce a higher quality product.

    You do what you feel is healthy for you... but can you say that you've never, ever had aluminum before?
    Of course, I ingested aluminum in the past; every one who likes soft drinks has, and we now know that people with Alzheimers have a higher concentration of aluminum in their brains. Does this mean that aluminum causes alzheimers? No, but it may be involved somehow.

    It isn't really fair to aim at the doctors for that. I always tell my hippy friends to become doctors themselves if they think it's such a bullshit field lately.
    When there are nutritional approaches to treating hypertension and diabetes, but the doctor only prescribes drugs, that's a problem. When the doctor doesn't understand what causes those illnesses and merely writes a prescription to treat them, that's a problem. The fact is that some of the major diseases like heart disease, diabetes, and Alzheimers can be significantly reduced through proper nutrition and doctors don't know this.

    Here's a John Hopkins study which shows a 70% reduction in Alzheimers in people who take vitamin E and vitamin C supplements:

    "In the first phase of the study, 200 cases of Alzheimer's were diagnosed, and those who had been taking vitamin supplements were at a 78 percent lower risk of the disease than those who had not. At the end of the study, another 104 participants had developed the disease, and the risk factor was 64 percent lower among supplement users."

    Study: Vitamins C, E cut Alzheimer's risk

    Source: Zandi et al. Reduced Risk of Alzheimer Disease in Users of Antioxidant Vitamin Supplements: The Cache County Study, Arch Neurol. 2004;61(1):82-88.
    "Libertarians are beacons of truth; we are not tractor beams of truth. Please do not blame us for not fixing your screw-ups." wise sayings of Tellenbach the Transcendant Sage, Vol. 4.

  10. #10
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm in support of vaccines, but vaccines should not contain mercury. I think we should thank people like Jenny McCarthy for bringing pressure to the pharmaceutical industry to produce a higher quality product.
    She demands higher quality of product, yet fails to address that the 'toxins' aren't that toxic at all. The toxins in a vaccination are less than you'd ever accidentally ingest as a kid. And there's nothing at all stating that low doses of literally any of the toxins being complained about are dangerous for the body. A little aluminum won't kill you--in fact, you'll never notice it. Yet vaccines are the center of attention? I could see saying deodorant is bad and campaigning against it.. but vaccines don't have near the same amounts to be a 'bad' product in the first place. Considering she's not complaining about tylenol either, I'd say she's just a rich privileged girl looking for attention. And she got it.

    If she wanted a higher quality product, why not go fucking make one herself? But no. She expects all those other people--you know the ones that spend endless hours in school learning this shit to do it for her at her will and command. Instead of, ya know, contributing.

    You can say she's fighting for ingredients all day long.. but despite the original guy redacting his claim of autism and vaccines having a correlation, and tons of studies being scrambled on all reporting they don't correlate, Jenny says straight out:
    "People have the misconception that we want to eliminate vaccines. Please understand that we are not an antivaccine group. We are demanding safe vaccines. We want to reduce the schedule and reduce the toxins. If you ask a parent of an autistic child if they want the measles or the autism, we will stand in line for the f--king measles."

    "I do believe sadly it’s going to take some diseases coming back to realize that we need to change and develop vaccines that are safe. If the vaccine companies are not listening to us, it’s their f*cking fault that the diseases are coming back. They’re making a product that’s sh*t. If you give us a safe vaccine, we’ll use it. It shouldn’t be polio versus autism."

    She's not founding anything on science. Instead of crying about vaccines, she ought to be crying about apples.. or something else. Literally anything else. Her endorsements got way too many people to quit all vaccines for something that isn't founded in truth. The truth is.. any of the toxins in vaccines are WAY less dangerous for you than any of the diseases they aim to treat. Even with the potential side effects.

    Of course, I ingested aluminum in the past; every one who likes soft drinks has, and we now know that people with Alzheimers have a higher concentration of aluminum in their brains. Does this mean that aluminum causes alzheimers? No, but it may be involved somehow.
    They also have plaques and tangles, and no one knows why they're caused by it. Aluminum is far too easy and convenient of an answer--and alzheimers has been going on long long before modern medicine and all of its aluminum. I'm not going to hound vaccine companies forever just because of this vague concept. They'd need far more evidence than that.
    I mean, to put it in perspective, if I told you "Hey, I went to a restaurant to eat, and I felt sick afterwards..".. You're essentially saying you'd stop eating out at all restaurants solely on the premise that you *may* get sick at one, if it was even the reason for my getting sick in the first place. And then you're telling restaurants, who admit in their menus that undercooked meats might make you sick if you order them, but they won't stop you from doing so, that they need to pick up their standards and stop being douches about making people sick.

    When there are nutritional approaches to treating hypertension and diabetes, but the doctor only prescribes drugs, that's a problem. When the doctor doesn't understand what causes those illnesses and merely writes a prescription to treat them, that's a problem. The fact is that some of the major diseases like heart disease, diabetes, and Alzheimers can be significantly reduced through proper nutrition and doctors don't know this.
    Most hypertension has an unknown cause. It's well documented that diet and exercise HELP a TON with treating hypertension--it's basic scientific principles. But those alone will NOT stop hypertension completely in all individuals. There are athletes that get it as well. Vegans. And organic eaters. All kinds of people develop it--and food is not the only culprit, even if it is a major competitor. Diabetes I can see your foothold a bit.. but it's hard to tell people, "hey, just stop eating garbage and you'll be fine." No. They won't. They need to control the hypertension RIGHT NOW. And drugs are the fastest, most efficient way of doing that. They'll make sure that heart doesn't die on the person. and that's super important.. like. ya know. for living. Sure they need to have a better lifestyle--but that isn't a quick fix at all, and many people are dancing with death by the time they get their hypertension looked at initially. And, I'm sorry to break this news out, but not everyone takes health seriously. Some people want to be alive, but they don't put health on the top of their shelves. It happens to many people: nurses, moms, business people... it isn't that they don't want to be alive, but they have a different value on health than people like, say, you do.

    Doctors pretty much always subscribe to a healthier lifestyle.. they mention it all the time. But nagging people doesn't get them to change. They have to want it. And doctors aren't there to be anyone's damn mother.

    Here's a John Hopkins study which shows a 70% reduction in Alzheimers in people who take vitamin E and vitamin C supplements:

    "In the first phase of the study, 200 cases of Alzheimer's were diagnosed, and those who had been taking vitamin supplements were at a 78 percent lower risk of the disease than those who had not. At the end of the study, another 104 participants had developed the disease, and the risk factor was 64 percent lower among supplement users."
    Where in this study does it make sense to say, that alzheimer's was diagnosed, and then it immediately says "78% lower risk of the disease." Did they have the disease or not? Because if they did, and they cured it with vitamin C in 78% of the people, that shit would be all over the place. So .. I'm not entirely trusting of that source right from the get-go. Entirely misleading way of wording there. I think they're saying people who take vitamin C have lower instances of alzheimer's.. Which, if they take supplements, chances are they're health conscious in general, and that makes sense. There's correlations between healthy living and all sorts of disease prevention. Nothing new at all.

    Alzheimer's disease is a complex, horrible disease.. and it has no cure. And sometimes you cannot explain why people got it. You can't even diagnose it truly until after they die still. So we're a long, long way from preventing it truly.
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