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Nature VS Modern Medicine and weeding out what truly works.

Do you believe in the farmacy trend?

  • I'm a hippy and I'm proud of it. Also, I have proof it works. No aluminum DO for me!

    Votes: 3 7.7%
  • I'm kind of a hippy, but I was brought up that way, and/or I like moral aspects of the trend.

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • This is a thing? Who's Jenny McCarthy? I mean, I guess both are fine.

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • Science trumps turnips all day. Beets and apples won't keep you from having eczema hunny, sorry.

    Votes: 24 61.5%
  • I don't really care at all. I can't afford either of them anyways.

    Votes: 4 10.3%

  • Total voters
    39

Tellenbach

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During pledge drives, the local PBS stations frequently broadcast lectures on health topics. William Davis' "Wheat Belly" and David Perlmutter's "Grain Brain" both argue that eating "grasses" is bad for you because they contain proteins that cause inflammation in the brain and gluten is just one protein of several that cause inflammation. I'd suggest people read their books and look at the evidence for themselves.

I think part of the reason why these types of books and websites are so popular these days is because the medical establishment (both in academia and in government) have let us down. People are getting fatter and more and more people are getting diabetes and they don't know why despite following the government's advice on eating less cholesterol and saturated fats.
 

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During pledge drives, the local PBS stations frequently broadcast lectures on health topics. William Davis' "Wheat Belly" and David Perlmutter's "Grain Brain" both argue that eating "grasses" is bad for you because they contain proteins that cause inflammation in the brain and gluten is just one protein of several that cause inflammation. I'd suggest people read their books and look at the evidence for themselves.

I think part of the reason why these types of books and websites are so popular these days is because the medical establishment (both in academia and in government) have let us down. People are getting fatter and more and more people are getting diabetes and they don't know why despite following the government's advice on eating less cholesterol and saturated fats.

It goes beyond the medical establishment not holding their weight in the eyes of the people. This is a societal problem at its core, if anything, doctors are frequently being wrongfully blamed for feeding into societal norms. As I said in the OP, a lot of these markets make it seem like doctors just LOVE loading people up with scripts, charging them for procedures, and testing them like lab rats instead of genuinely caring about improving health. It's just not that black and white. Some doctors not being excellent doctors does not mean the profession is at odds with these major movements for demands on better food labeling, awareness of true nutrition, etc. The professions frequently agree with each other on the major points. It's the minor details they disagree on... But because everyone is different, and people need to know their special unique snowflake body and personality may be treated the same (like a snowflake) but no one is more aware of their own unique traits than themselves. The problem is, the same fallacies and beliefs they ding doctors for frequently are ALSO being used by hippy-style diets. Raw food diets, 100% vegans, etc. all use the same logical fallacies and misrepresentations that they get so angry at the modern medical industry and government guidelines for using.

There is no evidence that being vegan is better for your health--and in fact, it's frequently shown to need supplementation to sustain BECAUSE it isn't advantageous for healthy. The more restrictions you place on a diet, the more you need to be active to make up the gaps. There are other reasons for being vegan, but pretending moral reasons for veganism is the same as a superior diet for the human body does not make it so.

(There's a whole catch-22 about antibiotics and people forcing hospital ratings to go down in satisfaction when doctors refuse to give abx for viral infections, which in turn forces the hospitals to write scripts to make people feel better (because you can't be dishonest about scripts being given either) vs the doctor looking lazy (it only takes one wrong diagnosis by a new doctor to make an explosion of 'this HOSPITAL isn't treating patients!), and then in turn creating bugs. That is only part doctor issues. It's easy to tell doctors 'hey, you must stop this now.' You can pull their practice if they don't comply. It's impossible to tell the American people to do something, and still keep their interest in coming in for their health.)

The government is slow to change and culturally they're 10 years behind the rest of society.. they always will be. I don't deny that plays in a factor. But there's something more innate in us, and more insidious in money making opportunities, that plays a heavy hand into this. Billions and trillions are spent on figuring out what advertisements work on people, what doesn't work, what tiny pieces of body language and clues influence us. Every bit of that research is put to use.. and the intentions aren't there to benefit people. Detox diets and fads sell because people know what the human psyche wants and they provide that and twist it into a subconscious need.

I think there are tons of well-meaning personnel working very hard to offer healthy lifestyles for others, and I don't deny that at all. But the medical establishment aren't the bad guys. The medical establishment frequently introduces healthy lifestyle adjustments based on research they do (I noticed this, I did years of research, and Boom the Orwellian diet exists now.. It was published by a doctor using western techniques of data collection) and, like I've said before, people interested in nutrition are promoting true nutrition based on known science and upcoming research. Now are you going to see that on E!TV? Probably not. But the information is out there and available. And growing.

So how do we combat this insidious onset of advertisements, schemes, cultural lifestyles (things as they've always been), people making health claims unsupported by any evidence, and personal accounts influencing the hearts and minds? We combat it with research, and knowledge, and impartial unbiased accounts. Objectivity. Who's actually living longer? Why? Is it the food, the lifestyle, all of it, is it possible to replicate? Can it help heal others? These are questions nutrition research tries to answer. And the results are really interesting and continue to surprise. People hype it all up out of proportion, and it turns into a crazy thing, but some of these food trends are useful. Though I will be the first to admit gluten-free-everything annoyed the crap out of me when it first came out, it's important. I as annoyed because people were just deciding to be gluten free. No tolerance testing, typically done with unknown allergens, no nothing, just.. some bullshit about candida and boom, gluten free just like that. I always get wary of new fad diets that start off with people blindly switching. Even so, my annoyance is no reason to discredit the diet at all. It's an important discovery, and more and more people are showing that cooking certain vegetables, recognizing phytic acid in grains, etc. all play an insidious effect and role in the diet. Small details creating a bigger picture.

You're absolutely right, gluten can seriously cause inflammation at an insidious onset for those intolerant to it.. and without a tolerance test in the presence of vague symptoms, who knows? There's an allergic spectrum ranging from mild intolerance (one you might not notice immediate effects on the daily) to anaphylactic shock. But that's why research is soo so important, and the validity of research needs serious establishment. It can distinguish whether it's worth giving up gluten for everyone, for some, to moderate it so inflammation isn't a big concern throughout the lifespan, or for no one that doesn't have confirmed celiac. Right not GF is the hot new thing, for good reason. People are seeing results. But is it the result of less processed foods or from the gluten itself and awareness/consciousness and more home cooked foods vs take out they can no longer have? That's still out there, and it'll take time to see results that show that difference.

I've mentioned on here I love the rawfoodsos blog and I love the sciencebasedmedicine blog because they both just sort of break things down to the nitty gritty. I like rawfood's message more and her intentions, vs sbm, but both have tons of merit on educating people and allowing them to make their own decisions. Grain belly or whatever it's called is one of the books highly supported by rawfoodsos for its serious basis in evidence based practice. It's something on my wishlist to read even, despite my love of breads. But that's the difference. It's based in evidence. Grain Belly is a wealth of knowledge and time and real effort. In comparison, Forks over Knives looks like Blue's Clues, with magic things being pulled out of pockets and cute squiggles being drawn on the paper. Guess which one is more appealing to the masses?

The reasons why we're motivated need to fundamentally change. Every person that buys into the advertisements of pieces like Forks over Knives is also buying into the SAME advertisements that got that mom to take her family into McDonalds. They're the the same concepts being used to appeal to the masses. It is up to us as people to crave education, and knowledge, and ask critical questions.

And I don't fault anyone for asking science the critical questions they do. Many western medical practices are absolutely worth asking. But for this piece, it isn't meant to highlight that. It's meant to highlight the other side of the coin. We're expected to question doctors and authority for western things.. but people like Food Babe don't want to be held accountable the same way they try to force doctors and producers to be held accountable. The folly works both ways... just like both industries are not truly at odds with each other, even if they disagree in some aspects.
 

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kyuuei said:
But the medical establishment aren't the bad guys. The medical establishment frequently introduces healthy lifestyle adjustments based on research they do (I noticed this, I did years of research, and Boom the Orwellian diet exists now..

I don't think they're bad people, but you can't deny that they've failed to control the obesity and diabetes (metabolic syndrome) epidemic. They've also engaged in suppressing alternative treatments (vitamin C, laetrile, antineoplastons) to protect profits.

You're correct about the power of advertising, but I haven't seen any counter advertisements from the medical establishment. I haven't seen a national educational campaign from the FDA or the surgeon general to fight obesity. I haven't seen them address the sodium problem or the processed food issues. I would argue that the medical establishment is part of the problem because of the food pyramid and the 12 servings of carbs that it recommends. They're also wrong about cholesterol and saturated fats and they've been ignoring many studies that would improve national health. Did you know that Finland drastically reduced the incidence of type I diabetes (by 90% in those taking 2000 IU) by feeding babies Vitamin D3 in the first year? Don't you think this type of information should be widely disseminated and put to practice by pediatricians?
 

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I don't think they're bad people, but you can't deny that they've failed to control the obesity and diabetes (metabolic syndrome) epidemic. They've also engaged in suppressing alternative treatments (vitamin C, laetrile, antineoplastons) to protect profits.

I don't think they've suppressed alternative treatments at all (many doctors, nurses, and practitioners report using Emergen-C and such all the time) and while yeah pharm is going to do pharm's thing and there's a LOT wrong with that system, it isn't all frowny-faces and gruel. There IS merit to a doctor making a professional opinion.. someone trying to cure their cancer with vitamin C because of a cute pinterest pic will not really be recommended to do so by any doctor.. but it isn't like they can stop people from trying either.

The only way modern medicine can 'fix' the obesity epidemic is to take away free will and rights from citizens to eat what they want and do what they want. No one forces cheeseburgers down people's throats and then tells them to sit in bed all day watching True Blood. Excluding homeless and the extreme poor getting whatever is handed to them, most people CHOOSE those unhealthy lifestyles. Either by default (i.e. they never thought to look for alternatives) or by admission/denial (I eat fairly healthy, this is the way our people eat, I've always done things like this, etc.) Advertisement and marketing have a far greater hand in this than modern medicine ever will. Most modern medicine is trying to work against the things caused by these.. Doctors can't force people to choose healthy lifestyles.. but they can help people live long enough to realize the decision for themselves sometimes.

To make matters worse, no one can agree on what's healthy. Just in this thread people massively disagreed on what constituted a healthy balanced diet, despite the premises being the same. Put that on a global scale and try to get everyone to comply with it. It ain't happenin'.

You're correct about the power of advertising, but I haven't seen any counter advertisements from the medical establishment. I haven't seen a national educational campaign from the FDA or the surgeon general to fight obesity.

Well, first, it really isn't their jobs. As a whole, medicine is a TON of aspects.. nutrition is just a tiny aspect of that big picture. Just like what you eat isn't 100% of who you are and what you do. The government DOES have campaigns for healthy eating all the time (have you never heard of my plate??) and I literally worked with people this year that do nothing but pass out pamphlets and go around to poorer communities and translate educational information for people for healthy living--what is portion control, what constitutes a serving, what eating the rainbow means. Those things are out there and the government and medicine DOES push it. They just don't PROFIT off of it. (They do, but not directly.) They don't have an interest in convincing people what is best.. they're just offering the information so people can make informed decisions if they so choose. It's more passive, but it's actually the better way to go especially when you're representing government. In comparison.. A detox juice box set profits immensely from that, directly, and immediately. So who's more interested in getting people into health? They both have interest, but for different reasons. Both profit, but in different ways. The juice box set doesn't need government a-okay's though to make it happen and has the power of advertising on its side. In comparison, the government advertising things immediately turns people off generally.

On top of that, like I said, the government is usually behind the curve with mass updates. Unlike the medical field of practice, educating civilians on every tiny update and research study means people going "omg I just got used to the food pyramid and now you're saying wheat is bad for me?! Wtf government!" You can see how easily people will just reject the whole thing entirely with one tiny adjustment. The government has to play it careful because they aren't talking to one specific type of people. Working with the masses is hard.

I haven't seen them address the sodium problem or the processed food issues.

There's recently been legislature for new food labels, including ensuring more notes on what ingredients are, the truer portion sizes in containers, and easier to understand number systems are in place. I don't know what you mean about people lacking interest in health from the government side. They're SUPER interested in it. Anything that can save them tons of money in medical bills is interesting. But change is slow. And people have to tip toe through it at a steady rate.

I would argue that the medical establishment is part of the problem because of the food pyramid and the 12 servings of carbs that it recommends. They're also wrong about cholesterol and saturated fats and they've been ignoring many studies that would improve national health.

Many nutritionists took issue with both the food pyramid and even the new system of myplate. They did away with the food pyramid for that very reason and myplate takes a significantly better approach of half vegetables and fruits, 1/4 protein and 1/4 carbs with a small serving a dairy. Does it perfectly align with research available? No. But does it provide easy to understand barney style guidelines for the masses? Yes. And the BEST information IS available.. anyone who wants access to it can eventually find it.

Did you know that Finland drastically reduced the incidence of type I diabetes (by 90% in those taking 2000 IU) by feeding babies Vitamin D3 in the first year? Don't you think this type of information should be widely disseminated and put to practice by pediatricians?

Vitamin D — Health Professional Fact Sheet
Not on it's own I don't. You have to take into account all the little details. Finland isn't the US. That doesn't make the information useless, but let me give you a rfsos example.

Forks over Knives made the mention that rats in the China Study were dying of high protein diets because of heart disease, and that animal meat was the cause of the high protein diet. They used a human example of saying people lost their livestock in WW2 occupation and thus led healthier lives as evidenced by them not dying of heart disease issues.
When the data was analyzed with more scrutiny, rats were dying at impossibly high rates *premature to the age they should be* from the low protein diets. They weren't dying from heart disease because their livers were failing without sufficient protein in their diet. And when they compared other statistical data from the country in that timeframe, they realized what went up drastically wasn't vegetable intake.. It was Fish. And on top of that, even THAT data could be faulty because there were communicable diseases breaking out during that time from other-dirty-country-invading-syndrome.. People were dying before they could die of either issue, so we'll never truly know. On top of all of that, heart disease is a sign of longevity in a population as a total. Chronic disease related deaths mean your country is doing well. When you compare it to developing countries, majority of deaths are long before the body would truly expire on its own due to infections and disease. Chronic conditions is a luxury death in comparison. But blaming animal meat for the deaths seems like a laughable stretch in the face of all the aspects of the data.

Do you see how easily data can get twisted around? It isn't that I don't believe data like that isn't useful. But standing alone doesn't tell me much at all. It doesn't convince me that that high amount is necessary. Especially when the manifestations for D deficiency (like rickets) have been eliminated massively with government d-fortification voluntary support.

The government already DOES emphasize vitamin D as essential, and has for a long time. You might not agree with where they draw the line, but they drew that line based on data. Pediatricians DO screen for vitamin deficiencies all the time, and probably a quarter of my barney-nurse-pediatrics class was just 'which vitamin deficiency does this child have? How do you know? What can you do about it? How do you educate the parents on it?'
 

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No doctor held a gun to my head and forced me to overeat and undermove and become fat. I did that all on my own. And reversing that trend has been as simple as adding a lot of activity, then figuring out what my body needs to run that level of activity and eating a little less than that. Which is exactly what they've been telling me to do since I was about ten years old. (The hard part has been ridding myself of the dogma that was fucking with my head and telling me I needed to eat low carb or vegan or paleo or blah blah blah blah blah blah to fix my shit.)
 

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kyuuei said:
I don't think they've suppressed alternative treatments at all (many doctors, nurses, and practitioners report using Emergen-C and such all the time) and while yeah pharm is going to do pharm's thing and there's a LOT wrong with that system, it isn't all frowny-faces and gruel.

There are books about the suppression of Vitamin C (2 botched clinical trials by the Mayo Clinic), 1 botched trial of laetrile (also by the Mayo Clinic and scientific fraud by Sloan Kettering), and the NCI's botched clinical trial of antineoplastons.

Here's a quote from "The Burzynski Breakthrough":

...the blood tests proved patients in the NCI-sponsored trial were receiving doses 53 times smaller than Burzynski's own patients. "It is a dosage-sensitive medication," Burzynski said. "These dosages guaranteed the results would be poor.

kyuuei said:
The only way modern medicine can 'fix' the obesity epidemic is to take away free will and rights from citizens to eat what they want and do what they want.

So why are the French not as fat as Americans and Australians? I don't think American children and the public have been properly educated on nutrition. Quite the opposite ---the government has steered Americans away from meat (sat'd fats and cholesterol) and towards fattening carbs.

kyuuei said:
Finland isn't the US. That doesn't make the information useless, but let me give you a rfsos example.

You gotta read this blog entry:

6a00d8341d0fcc53ef010536a62e82970c-800wi.png


Vitamin D Deficiency and Type 1 Diabetes
 

Ivy

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Americans are breathtakingly inactive. The French are not.

Edited to add- the Japanese also have far lower incidence of obesity, but they eat tons of rice and noodles. They also walk a few thousand steps a day more than Americans, on average.
 

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To be sure, Americans are filling up on carbohydrates like pasta, potatoes, and bread. In the early '70s we ate 136 pounds (62 kilograms) of flour and cereal products per capita, and now it's 200 pounds (91 kilograms).

"We went wrong by allowing the American Medical Association and the United States Department of Agriculture to say: 'You've got to go on a low-fat diet.' They failed to take into account that when people do that, they increase their carbohydrates." Robert Atkins

Why Are We So Fat?

Yes, the Japanese eat lots of rice and ramen (carbs), but not compared to Americans (just a hunch).
 

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Americans are breathtakingly inactive. The French are not.

Edited to add- the Japanese also have far lower incidence of obesity, but they eat tons of rice and noodles. They also walk a few thousand steps a day more than Americans, on average.

The French also eat smaller portions and more whole foods, both the Japanese and French eat smaller amounts of meat compared to the grains and vegetables on their plate (where do people think the plate model percentages come from? ) ...and yes the Japanese eat a ton of rice, not necessarily a ton of wheat, and even when they do eat wheat it's like whole grain buckwheat noodles, not white bread with high fructose corn syrup.

Those things make a difference, HFCS caused lab rats at Princeton to gain four times as much weight as sugar and water, and corn in various forms is pushed on Americans, not just via HFCS, though it's a major problem, as is refined sugar and super sizing meat and fast foods, even an English friend of mine thought it was absurd, and they are right behind American people in obesity because of their fatty bland meat heavy diet.
 

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There are books about the suppression of Vitamin C (2 botched clinical trials by the Mayo Clinic), 1 botched trial of laetrile (also by the Mayo Clinic and scientific fraud by Sloan Kettering), and the NCI's botched clinical trial of antineoplastons.

Writing books isn't the same as suppressing a movement. Have you even walked into a pharmacy lately? Walmart? CVS? The flu/cold area is riddled with alternative medicine. Every shelf has it. Emetrol, elderberry syrup, saline spray (arguably both modern medicine and hippy medicine), vitamins, seltzers, and cough drops with flower extracts. No one is suppressing Vitamin C. Orange juice when you're sick has been a staple in America as far as I can ever remember growing up. It's such a well known thing it's up there with apples being doctor-vanquishers.

So why are the French not as fat as Americans and Australians? I don't think American children and the public have been properly educated on nutrition. Quite the opposite ---the government has steered Americans away from meat (sat'd fats and cholesterol) and towards fattening carbs.

The government doesn't steer people's nutrition. It tries, sure. But Americans have been this way for a while. The credit card attitude is very American. If you just do a google search for ridiculous ways people tried to get rid of fat back in the good ole black and white days, you'll see people were always interested in dumbing down nutrition. The 'recipes' of Amish days and pies and stuff aren't exactly healthy at all. It never was. Tons of grains and such. They were just a pain in the dick to prepare. Now a days it isn't so hard to make--because someone else and machines make it for you. And we've always had advertisements for all sorts of bad-for-us stuff. We've bought into things without researching it. It's always always always been this way in America. It isn't a new trait.

France walks EVERYWHERE. I was just there. It's STUPID expensive to even be able to drive, more less own a car. Everyone walks and bikes. Japan too. 10,000 steps is a huuuge movement right now for nutrition because of the Japanese.

"We went wrong by allowing the American Medical Association and the United States Department of Agriculture to say: 'You've got to go on a low-fat diet.' They failed to take into account that when people do that, they increase their carbohydrates."

Any time someone blames a single thing for the causes of obesity, people should be wary. It's a multi-faceted thing, and complex to understand even if you're educated in the subject. People don't want to hear that though. Americans don't want to read a 15,000 page essay (and that's truly attempting to dumb it down here with those words) on ONE tiny aspect of nutrition. Most of us read at an 8th grade level.

Yes, the Japanese eat lots of rice and ramen (carbs), but not compared to Americans (just a hunch).

.... Are you seriously saying the Japanese don't eat as much rice as Americans? First, rice is gluten free. They eat less BREAD than us, yes. But they eat rice on the daily. Like a song on repeat. Rice and insertanythinghere. Noodles not so much, but even in Japan western-like mentalities and increased convenience have increased the waistbands there. Japan isn't immune to this menality.. advertisements, and sexy-appealing-pre-made foods get to humans in general. No one is safe from that.

The French also eat smaller portions and more whole foods, both the Japanese and French eat smaller amounts of meat compared to the grains and vegetables on their plate (where do people think the plate model percentages come from? ) ...and yes the Japanese eat a ton of rice, not necessarily a ton of wheat, and even when they do eat wheat it's like whole grain buckwheat noodles, not white bread with high fructose corn syrup.

Yup.
 

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I don't see it as an either/or, but a rather both/and situation. Not all of "Western" medicine is Big Pharma, insurance companies, or hack doctors having a Brave New World moment in history. Nor is all of "Eastern" medicine the realm of hippies, new agers, or quack doctors having a pebble moment in the ocean of eternal enlightenment. Both "sides" do have much to account for in terms of their pockets (large and small) of extremism.

When I see some anti-vaccine types consider "Western" medicine to be evil conspirators in the shadows, I wonder if they would bring their young child to a distant foreign country in the East without getting vaccinated. When I see some anti-natural remedy types consider it "Eastern" or "hippie" to treat oneself with St. John's Wort, locally produced honey, or a nasal rinse with a Neti pot, I wonder what 20th century medical textbook common sense is hiding under.

When we accept the differences between causes, correlations, symptoms, and cures- well I think we might just get somewhere important. Until then, all I see is a turf war for dominance that completely misses the point of medicine: the health and life of individual human beings.

I thank God for doctors and "Western" medicine, and thank God for the "East" not allowing us to forget that humans are more than a material-biological object. For all the extremists on both sides, they will realize one day that neither "side" has the cure for what gets us all: death.

Now if only we could "cure" that societal problem called lack of individual self-discipline and responsibility. Maybe then we wouldn't look in all the wrong places for all the answers to why we are ill.
 

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Americans are breathtakingly inactive. The French are not.

Edited to add- the Japanese also have far lower incidence of obesity, but they eat tons of rice and noodles. They also walk a few thousand steps a day more than Americans, on average.
Sugar. Americans are full of a toxin called sugar.

Good documentary: Fed Up (2014) - IMDb
 

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kyuuei said:
Writing books isn't the same as suppressing a movement.

Dr. Burzynski is not allowed to sell his antineoplastons across state lines and Vitamin C is rarely used to treat cancer. Basically, alternative treatments are the method of last resort in treating cancer when they should be used before any chemo or radiation.

kyuuei said:
The government doesn't steer people's nutrition. It tries, sure. But Americans have been this way for a while

Don't you think establishment sources have steered people away from cholesterol and saturated fats?

kyuuei said:
France walks EVERYWHERE. I was just there. It's STUPID expensive to even be able to drive, more less own a car. Everyone walks and bikes. Japan too. 10,000 steps is a huuuge movement right now for nutrition because of the Japanese.

You only burn 100 calories per 2500 steps. That's not even 1 candy bar. Sure it helps, but the problem with Americans is BOTH too much carbs and not enough exercise.

kyuuei said:
.... Are you seriously saying the Japanese don't eat as much rice as Americans?

No. I was referring to total carbs. Americans consume 200 lbs each year; I doubt the Japanese eat as much.
 

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Dr. Burzynski is not allowed to sell his antineoplastons across state lines and Vitamin C is rarely used to treat cancer. Basically, alternative treatments are the method of last resort in treating cancer when they should be used before any chemo or radiation.

Your point here is highly debatable. Alternative medicine for a long long time was the ONLY way to treat cancer. We didn't see stark advances in regression until chemo and radiation. It isn't the only way, sure, but telling people Vitamin C in high doses is just as effective as chemo for their cancer is completely misleading and the evidence backs that up.

Even the people that "cured" their cancers with holistic means usually don't bother to emphasize that they used western medicinal properties as their MAIN cure. Surgery in some cancers on its own shows high percentage cure rates. So they'll say they removed the tumor, and then did holistic medicine. Meaning the data is garbage. Holistic medicine could have helped.. but definitely didn't do anything for the bulk of curing cancer. Even the people trying to get others to cure cancer with alternative medicine aren't gambling their own lives on it. That, to me, speaks volumes, and I've already linked about the subject here before.

Don't you think establishment sources have steered people away from cholesterol and saturated fats?

Oh they certainly have. It's one of the great things hippies are doing right now--showing people fats aren't the bad guys, that real food is a good thing even if it's high calorie and high fat. The kind of fat matters. The no-fat and fat-free diet thing was HUGE in the 90s, and remnants of it remain heavily in place.

But the root of my question is: Why did it become popular? Because advertising, marketing, and quick-fix schemes that don't fix anything.

Detox diets are the new fad now.. And guess what is at the core of juicing? No Fats. Low protein. Just real fruits and vegetables and nothing else for 2 days and boom you're great. There's been mixed research and consensus on whether fasting helps or hurts the body, and in the end thoughtful fasting with a knowledge basis doesn't hurt anymore than eating regularly. What IS very similar between the fat-free devil's food cakes and $9 16oz bottles of juice is: they're fat free, they're advertised as 'kick starting' weight loss, and they range from 2 days to 14 days. It's still the same concept on either side of the coin. Quick fixes to stop feeling guilty for the sins of enjoying a cheeseburger.

You only burn 100 calories per 2500 steps. That's not even 1 candy bar. Sure it helps, but the problem with Americans is BOTH too much carbs and not enough exercise.

The French eat carbs with every single meal. How is bread NOT a french staple? You can't throw a dead cat without hitting a bread shop, I was there. They serve it to you no matter what kind of restaurant you walk into. The french have healthier recipes, no denying that, but carbs aren't the issue alone. Burning carbs isn't the only reason, nor should it be the sole reason, for walking. Walking is what people were made to do.. the less we do it, the more our body suffers. Too many studies have shown sedentary lifestyles have far more adverse effects than what kind of diet you eat. And they manifest quicker.

It's why NASA is paying $170 a day + $1200 a week for bed-studies for astronauts.. paying people to lay in bed and not get up for 70 days and then rehabilitating them. People aren't made to sit still. So even with the vastly different variety of lifestyles and diets between the French and the Japanese, walking is a very clear common denominator.

No. I was referring to total carbs. Americans consume 200 lbs each year; I doubt the Japanese eat as much.

I'd guess you wrong. Their top 5 staples for traditional diet: Rice, green tea, vegetables, fruits, and fish. Three of those 5 are carbs. Vegetables and fruits are carbs as well.. the carbs aren't the evil, the KIND of carbs I will give you that but saying the Japanese eat less carbs than Americans I'll still say no to that. Rice with every meal = a fuck ton of carbs.
 

prplchknz

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Your point here is highly debatable. Alternative medicine for a long long time was the ONLY way to treat cancer. We didn't see stark advances in regression until chemo and radiation. It isn't the only way, sure, but telling people Vitamin C in high doses is just as effective as chemo for their cancer is completely misleading and the evidence backs that up.

Even the people that "cured" their cancers with holistic means usually don't bother to emphasize that they used western medicinal properties as their MAIN cure. Surgery in some cancers on its own shows high percentage cure rates. So they'll say they removed the tumor, and then did holistic medicine. Meaning the data is garbage. Holistic medicine could have helped.. but definitely didn't do anything for the bulk of curing cancer. Even the people trying to get others to cure cancer with alternative medicine aren't gambling their own lives on it. That, to me, speaks volumes, and I've already linked about the subject here before.



Oh they certainly have. It's one of the great things hippies are doing right now--showing people fats aren't the bad guys, that real food is a good thing even if it's high calorie and high fat. The kind of fat matters. The no-fat and fat-free diet thing was HUGE in the 90s, and remnants of it remain heavily in place.

But the root of my question is: Why did it become popular? Because advertising, marketing, and quick-fix schemes that don't fix anything.

Detox diets are the new fad now.. And guess what is at the core of juicing? No Fats. Low protein. Just real fruits and vegetables and nothing else for 2 days and boom you're great. There's been mixed research and consensus on whether fasting helps or hurts the body, and in the end thoughtful fasting with a knowledge basis doesn't hurt anymore than eating regularly. What IS very similar between the fat-free devil's food cakes and $9 16oz bottles of juice is: they're fat free, they're advertised as 'kick starting' weight loss, and they range from 2 days to 14 days. It's still the same concept on either side of the coin. Quick fixes to stop feeling guilty for the sins of enjoying a cheeseburger.



The French eat carbs with every single meal. How is bread NOT a french staple? You can't throw a dead cat without hitting a bread shop, I was there. They serve it to you no matter what kind of restaurant you walk into. The french have healthier recipes, no denying that, but carbs aren't the issue alone. Burning carbs isn't the only reason, nor should it be the sole reason, for walking. Walking is what people were made to do.. the less we do it, the more our body suffers. Too many studies have shown sedentary lifestyles have far more adverse effects than what kind of diet you eat. And they manifest quicker.

It's why NASA is paying $170 a day + $1200 a week for bed-studies for astronauts.. paying people to lay in bed and not get up for 70 days and then rehabilitating them. People aren't made to sit still. So even with the vastly different variety of lifestyles and diets between the French and the Japanese, walking is a very clear common denominator.



I'd guess you wrong. Their top 5 staples for traditional diet: Rice, green tea, vegetables, fruits, and fish. Three of those 5 are carbs. Vegetables and fruits are carbs as well.. the carbs aren't the evil, the KIND of carbs I will give you that but saying the Japanese eat less carbs than Americans I'll still say no to that. Rice with every meal = a fuck ton of carbs.

didn't i post an article in here pretty much saying the same thing? I'm legit asking
 

93JC

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Bump!


FraudulentSupplements.r4.png


New York Attorney General Targets Supplements at Major Retailers

The New York State attorney general’s office accused four major retailers on Monday of selling fraudulent and potentially dangerous herbal supplements and demanded that they remove the products from their shelves.

The authorities said they had conducted tests on top-selling store brands of herbal supplements at four national retailers — GNC, Target, Walgreens and Walmart — and found that four out of five of the products did not contain any of the herbs on their labels. The tests showed that pills labeled medicinal herbs often contained little more than cheap fillers like powdered rice, asparagus and houseplants, and in some cases substances that could be dangerous to those with allergies.

The investigation came as a welcome surprise to health experts who have long complained about the quality and safety of dietary supplements, which are exempt from the strict regulatory oversight applied to prescription drugs.

The Food and Drug Administration has targeted individual supplements found to contain dangerous ingredients. But the announcement Monday was the first time that a law enforcement agency had threatened the biggest retail and drugstore chains with legal action for selling what it said were deliberately misleading herbal products.

Among the attorney general’s findings was a popular store brand of ginseng pills at Walgreens, promoted for “physical endurance and vitality,” that contained only powdered garlic and rice. At Walmart, the authorities found that its ginkgo biloba, a Chinese plant promoted as a memory enhancer, contained little more than powdered radish, houseplants and wheat — despite a claim on the label that the product was wheat- and gluten-free.

Three out of six herbal products at Target — ginkgo biloba, St. John’s wort and valerian root, a sleep aid — tested negative for the herbs on their labels. But they did contain powdered rice, beans, peas and wild carrots. And at GNC, the agency said, it found pills with unlisted ingredients used as fillers, like powdered legumes, the class of plants that includes peanuts and soybeans, a hazard for people with allergies.

The attorney general sent the four retailers cease-and-desist letters on Monday and demanded that they explain what procedures they use to verify the ingredients in their supplements.


Colour me unsurprised...
 

kyuuei

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[MENTION=5837]93JC[/MENTION] I just saw an article about this last night. Even when people are trying to go natural, they're being fed snake oils.

I actually found it on accident reading about gummy multivitamins where it claims to give 100% of vitamin C or whatever, but actually the gummy itself is not broken down well enough to absorb that much and you only get a fraction of the vitamins infused in the gummy.

There is a very very good reason someone would be just sued to shit if they created a beta blocker pill that lacked any beta blockers, but someone who creates st. john's wart supplements can put essentially pretty colored air in it and nothing will happen to them. I hope this guy does what he sets out to do and puts some real wrath of god fears into these greedy people pretending to be hippy healers.
 

kyuuei

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Pediatricians Fight Back Against Anti-Vaxxers, Ban Their Kids | ThinkProgress

I think this might be a good step in the right direction. There is still a huge "We have a choice in this as parents" even though they're essentially choosing an option that puts their child in immediate harm and danger and saying they'd rather gamble with statistics.. and since it's more of a gray area than "I have a choice to shake my baby if she cries" it's not seen as neglect of child care needs.. and in the light of the fact that apparently anti-vaxxers will ignore any education being pushed their way using strawmen as blame.. Study: You Can't Change an Anti-Vaxxer's Mind | Mother Jones

.. I think this is a great step in the right direction. "Fine, do what you want, but this is THAT important that I MUST protect my patients.. and if I'm the only pediatrician within 30 miles, so be it. Get your kid vaccinated before you come back to me." I think most institutions should come up with this. Schools, doctor offices, benefit offices like WIC... Children need protection--often times, unfortunately, from their parents themselves.

I predict a lot of REALLY bad scenarios.. children not getting care, and education, and stuff.. places requiring vaccines having pockets of healthy children, children who are medically exempt being stuck in the middle of the feud, and horrible cesspools of schools and daycares not requiring vaccines being overloaded with kids that are just breeding grounds for outbreaks.. and people not taking any of the responsibility when they open a daycare saying 'We don't care if you don't vaccinate!' and then 3-4 children get tragically ill at the establishment. Which, unfortunately, is probably what it will take before people really get their act together and end this.

More importantly than educating the parents, I think, is educating the children themselves. If the children are educated, they can at least decide to get the vaccines on their own later.. or they can have more scientific mentalities that can let this nonsense die with the current generation.

Of course, I'm super bias... I think that doctors should be allowed to save a child's life from a high-cure-rate disease regardless of parents. JW's don't believe in receiving blood products, which essentially is a death certificate for a kid requiring them to live. Hippies don't want their 90% cure rate cancer kid to receive proper treatment for it. To me, that's just as abusive to a child as denying a child life through neglect, abuse, and killing. You're killing your child and not even giving them a chance in life. Children to me ought to be protected at all costs, even if the parent is all frowny-faced about it. Because the truth is, as a society, we turn the switch and flip it quick when the issue ISN'T medically related.. when it's 'Oh, I just shook my baby until she stopped crying. Now she won't eat.' We arrest the woman.. and if she 'believes' it wasn't hurting her child, we say tough shit. Ignorance isn't an excuse in the court of law, it isn't an excuse in situations of abuse and neglect, and it certainly shouldn't be in the case of proven medicine and practice.

I wish parents were the end-all-see-all of things, and that parents were the MOST important thing in a child's life. But the most important thing in a child's life is opportunity to live it. Parents frequently get in the way of that for many reasons.. and many are selfish, narrow minded, straight up inadequate, and without a real thought in what is best for the child.
 
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