Nature VS Modern Medicine and weeding out what truly works.

[Tellenbach]

Colds don't need to be cured, they go away in such a ridiculously short amount of time, and no medicine you post is going to cure colds and kill the virus because it doesn't exist--in natural or modern medicine.

Colds last 7 to 10 days and many people, especially parents with little kids, get multiple colds each year. If you aren't willing to give Vitamin C a try, I don't see how you can say that it doesn't kill the virus. That's an opinion. I have no problem with opinions, but I'd prefer opinions from those who did give Vitamin C a try (1 gram per hour for the 1st two days of the cold).

In this thread, it appears that I'm the only one who did try the massive dose of Vitamin C; therefore, my opinion > anyone elses .

 

[skylights]

Colds last 7 to 10 days and many people, especially parents with little kids, get multiple colds each year. If you aren't willing to give Vitamin C a try, I don't see how you can say that it doesn't kill the virus. That's an opinion. I have no problem with opinions, but I'd prefer opinions from those who did give Vitamin C a try (1 gram per hour for the 1st two days of the cold).

In this thread, it appears that I'm the only one who did try the massive dose of Vitamin C; therefore, my opinion > anyone elses .

Can I just add the caveat that people might want to check with a medical professional to make sure that they don't have any conditions or other medications that might make this a bad idea before going through with it? I don't have any problem with people trying it - I have a couple of friends I know swear by it - but I think it'd be wise to double-check that there aren't any contraindications before trying it.

 

[Tellenbach]

Other than that, you're reaching for beans if you think anyone's found magic pills to kill a virus.

I don't mean to pick on you, but it's been proven that ascorbic acid has anti-viral properties.

Antiviral effects of ascorbic and dehydroascorbic acids in vitro.

In the present study, ascorbic acid weakly inhibited the multiplication of viruses of three different families: herpes simplex virus type 1 (HSV-1), influenza virus type A and poliovirus type 1.

Suppression of human immunodeficiency virus replication by ascorbate in chronically and acutely infected cells.

We have studied the action of ascorbate (vitamin C) on human immunodeficiency virus type 1 (HIV-1), the etiological agent clinically associated with AIDS. We report the suppression of virus production and cell fusion in HIV-infected T-lymphocytic cell lines grown in the presence of nontoxic concentrations of ascorbate.

Antiviral and Immunomodulatory Activities of Ascorbic Acid

Over the years, it has become well recognized that ascorbate can bolster the natural defense mechanisms of the host and provide protection not only against infectious disease, but also against cancer and other chronic degenerative diseases. The functions involved in ascorbate’s enhancement of host resistance to disease include its biosynthetic (hy-droxylating), antioxidant, and immunostimulatory activities. In addition, ascorbate exerts a direct antiviral action that may confer specific protection against viral disease. The vitamin has been found to inactivate a wide spectrum of viruses as well as suppress viral replication abd expression in infected cell. In this article we review the antiviral and immunotimulatory effects of ascorbate and their relevance to control of acute and chronic viral infections. Detailed discussion of thr biosynthetic activities of ascorbate has been presented in a review by England and Seifter (1986). The antinoxidant function of ascorbate has been reviewed recently by Bendich (1988)

 

[Tellenbach]

Can I just add the caveat that people might want to check with a medical professional to make sure that they don't have any conditions or other medications that might make this a bad idea before going through with it? I don't have any problem with people trying it - I have a couple of friends I know swear by it - but I think it'd be wise to double-check that there aren't any contraindications before trying it.

The only issues with vitamin C involve intravenous administration of high doses in patients with large tumors. The sudden introduction of ascorbate would cause necrosis of the tumor which may pose a problem in some patients. This was Linus Pauling's only admonition concerning vitamin C. To date, there has not been a single death from the use of vitamin C in any concentration.

Oops, Pauling also warned about stopping massive doses of vitamin C suddenly.

 

[Tellenbach]

I agree with kyuuei about the risks of waiting for natural remedies to kick in for conditions like high BP. I have that, and I am changing my lifestyle to treat it. I do use a salt substitute of potassium but it's still high.

The solution is to lower sodium and raise the potassium levels. Assuming you don't have some underlying kidney or liver issues, that should do the trick. Your target should be a 1:4 ratio of sodium to potassium. Using a salt substitute won't work if you eat out and consume salty foods or snacks.

The evidence for a low sodium to potassium ratio to control hypertension is pretty overwhelming. Indigenous people around the globe who haven't adopted the modern diet don't get hypertension or strokes or diabetes. The Aita (Solomon Islands), Australian aborigines, Botswana natives, Carajas Indians (Brazil), Cuna Indians (Panama), Eskimos (Greenland), Kenyan natives, Ugandan natives, Tarahumara Indians (Northern Mexico), and the Yanomamo Indians (Brazil) all have less than 1% hypertension. I have references for each population if you are interested.

Other evidence:

The residents of Evans County, Georgia consume a diet with a 2.56 sodium: 1 potassium ratio and they have 27% hypertension in the population.

By contrast:

Vegetarians in Tel Aviv consume a diet with a 0.71 sodium: 1 potassium ratio and they have 2% hypertension.
The Yanomamo Indians consume a diet with a 0.05 sodium: 1 potassium ratio and they have less than 1% hypertension.

 

[kyuuei]

[MENTION=2]Ivy[/MENTION], or you could just listen to your doctor and keep fighting the good fight.. because it sounds like you're really on the right track and have plenty of motivation to have a healthy lifestyle that fits your needs down the road.

 

[Tellenbach]

She is on the right track and here is more motivation to lower sodium and increase potassium:

High K diets markedly reduce atherosclerotic cholesterol ester deposition in aortas of rats with hypercholesterolemia and hypertension.

Thus high K reduced cholesterol ester deposits by 64% (P less than .0003), even though blood pressure and cholesterol levels were quite similar in the two groups. Both high cholesterol and high BP injure endothelial cells and increase invasion of macrophages and vascular smooth muscle cells into the intima and increase endothelial permeability to proteins. With high plasma cholesterol, these processes lead to atherosclerosis with cholesterol ester deposition. The high K diet, by protecting endothelial cells, can greatly decrease this cholesterol ester deposition. This effect could possible be useful for preventing atherosclerotic complications such as heart attacks in human hypertension.

Finland reduced strokes and heart attacks by 60% in a 20 year period by switching to a salt substitute (sodium,potassium, and magnesium), so increasing potassium seems to work in both rats and humans.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

Lactose intolerance isn't a real disease. It's just that most humans don't have that evolutionary mechanism. People can also eat shit like Twinkies and Spam, it doesn't mean it's natural or good for you. Just because humans can technically survive on certain substances doesn't mean it's the wisest thing to eat on a daily basis. Nutrition is a much more advanced science than it was 150 years ago. Tradition is not an argument for healthy eating. It's traditional to drink large quantities of vodka in Russian culture, but we now know how dangerous immoderate consumption of alcohol is (and that Russian men have a shockingly low life expectancy).

I don't know... but I've never read any extensive body of studies that shows that lactose consumption in lactose intolerant individuals has lead to any serious health complications. There would likely be studies that correlate lactose intolerance with shorter-life term expectancy or adverse complication for it, like drug-usage or alcohol consumption. Like gluten intolerance f.ex or food allergies.

 

[Ivy]

I don't have hypercholesterolemia. My cholesterol levels are all in the "ideal" range.

 

[Thalassa]

I don't know... but I've never read any extensive body of studies that shows that lactose consumption in lactose intolerant individuals has lead to any serious health complications. There would likely be studies that correlate lactose intolerance with shorter-life term expectancy or adverse complication for it, like drug-usage or alcohol consumption. Like gluten intolerance f.ex or food allergies.

Lactose intolerant individuals have now been shown to suffer from less of certain types of cancers due to their lack of dairy consumption. ...so these health benefits people are enjoying from lack of dairy seem to contradict the absurd idea we should feed lactose intolerant individuals Lactaise so they can consume dairy. Thus my point to others pages ago.

 

[Thalassa]

They also have their issues too--mainly, that Japanese people (women particularly though) have TONS of bone issues in later life, and osteoporosis is a major thing being screened constantly in the asian community. That's nearly directly contributed to a low dairy diet without adequate supplementation. I've just spent all semester working with the chinese community center, And I had no idea it was a problem. But it is. Constipation and GI issues, herbal remedies mixing with modern medicines, and bone density issues were the three top complaints. Hardly no one had high blood sugar issues, which makes sense, but the bone aspect was clearly the biggest thing people were concerned about. People lined up out the door for that screening. No one diet is perfect in their approach.

I love the Japanese diet, I eat it weekly at least, and mediterranean food whenever I get a chance, I'm not so great at cooking that way. But even though they're great diets and have noted benefits, it doesn't mean the Americans are totally off base with nothing to offer. Demonizing American food lately is somehow equivalent to demonizing fast food.. Fast food is a modern phenomenon and has little relations to what Americans ate once and eat now on a daily basis.

Milk definitely creates mucus, that's well documented, but if you aren't currently suffering a cold, or respiratory distress of some sort, it really doesn't bother. I quit milk for 2 years, and my skin didn't clear, and my allergies didn't go away. Hormones and what time of the month it is had such a bigger influence on my acne. Saying "This could cause this" doesn't mean it's automatically to be avoided. Acne and mucus can also be easily alleviated with good hygiene (for the most part, acne is a whole other beast) and adequate hydration. So, if you hydrate and treat acne either way, why does milk sound like a bad thing? It doesn't. At least not to like a bazillion people out there.

Everyone has their elixirs. For me it's orange juice, pho vietnamese soup, saline, and hydrogen peroxide as a gargle. I think those things are magical for colds, and they work for me every time. They aren't science.. but they don't have to be really for me. Everything is a cost benefit ratio. I'd much rather drink milk than not. I'd much rather cook food than eat it raw. Yet, there are people who'd disagree with me all over the place. I don't mind, and their valid. Just no more valid than I am with my pho soup.

I am not talking about individuals liking dairy but rather the aggressive celebrity endorsement surrounding dairy in the West, and the invention of substances like Lactaise, creating a false reality where dairy is fabulous for everyone. Even you seem to believe people get osteoporosis without milk, but there have actually been studies linking dairy consumption to INCREASED osteoporosis, not the other way around. Caucasian women have a similar risk for osteoporosis to Asian women, apart from African Americans and Hispanic population, despite milk consumption being normative in most Caucasian societies.

While I respect the general tone of your post, I also have to disagree with you that acne is principally a hygeine issue. ...while proper hygeine helps, both high sugar diets and dairy consumption have been linked to chronic acne. Not in all people, which is why the evidence is inconclusive, but removing dairy has worked for a significant number of people.

Same with mucus. I have met people who are congested nearly 24/7...instead of taking excessive amounts of Claritin, it might do them good to at least try to eliminate dairy.

 

[Ivy]

I did a little digging and it seems that the PCRM is closely associated with PETA (founded by a PETA board member, a non-practicing psychiatrist). Not exactly a neutral physicians' organization. Their aim is to promote animal liberation and veganism and they cherry-pick and misrepresent research to that end. 95% of their members are not physicians.

I have zero respect for PETA and by extension I am not really interested in what the PCRM has to say.

 

[Tellenbach]

They also have their issues too--mainly, that Japanese people (women particularly though) have TONS of bone issues in later life, and osteoporosis is a major thing being screened constantly in the asian community.

I don't know much about osteoporosis, but a quick search reveals that Vitamin K2 might be important, very important:

Effects of vitamin K2 on osteoporosis.

These findings suggest that vitamin K2 may not only stimulate bone formation but also suppress bone resorption in vivo. Clinically, vitamin K2 sustains the lumbar bone mineral density (BMD) and prevents osteoporotic fractures in patients with age-related osteoporosis, prevents vertebral fractures in patients with glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis, increases the metacarpal BMD in the paralytic upper extremities of patients with cerebrovascular disease, and sustains the lumbar BMD in patients with liver-dysfunction-induced osteoporosis. Vitamin K deficiency, as indicated by an increased circulating level of undercarboxylated osteocalcin, may contribute to osteoporotic fractures.

Also:

Treatment with vitamin D3 and/or vitamin K2 for postmenopausal osteoporosis.

It is established in Japan that treatment with 1alpha-hydroxyvitamin D3 (alfacalcidol) slightly reduces bone turnover, sustains lumbar bone mineral density (BMD), and prevents osteoporotic vertebral fractures in postmenopausal women with osteoporosis, while vitamin K2 (menatetrenone) enhances gamma-carboxylation of bone glutamic acid residues and secretion of osteocalcin, sustains lumbar BMD, and prevents osteoporotic fractures in patients with osteoporosis.

 

[Thalassa]

I did a little digging and it seems that the PCRM is closely associated with PETA (founded by a PETA board member). Not exactly a neutral physicians' organization. Their aim is to promote veganism and they cherry-pick and misrepresent research to that end.

I have zero respect for PETA and by extension I am not really interested in what the PCRM has to say.

Most groups have an agenda. I don't believe our FDA is neutral either, our government is closely tied to corporate welfare and has much too much interest in big business, like the pharmaceutical industry. I mean for example Hard there seems to believe that the drug culture "isn't real" and that if it weren't safe the FDA wouldn't approve it. This is also biased and extremely naive of corporate agendas, no matter his schooling in science, he apparently is ethically buying into the pharmaceutical industry ethics, but strangely believes this is "objective" while a lot of doctors and scientists would oppose his views, including my sister with her background in Biology.

Kyuuei was actually correct to point out how much of this is philosophical, for example you don't even want to hear what the PCRM has to say because you don't like PETA...but that doesn't make the actual studies they site any less valid.

I can see how as an Fi dom you are very determined to make your own choices like I am, albeit different choices, from the way you describe your decision to deal with high blood pressure, and that's your right.

However, multiple views should always be expressed, there is no real science without questioning and dissent, it's not just about observation, people can make observations on their own, you don't have to have a specific committee to approve it.

My most recent post about people who are lactose intolerant having less forms of certain cancers has nothing to do with PCRM.

 

[Ivy]

Except that they misrepresent the studies they cite. The AMA is an actual association of medical doctors (as the name implies) and they've repeatedly spoken out against the duplicitous tactics of the PCRM.

 

[Ivy]

As for the lactose intolerant/cancer risk thing, it seems to me that you are attributing causation where none has been established. Correlation is not causation. And other studies have had other results- another recent study found that a protein in milk inhibits the growth of colon cancer. So like I said, the research is ambivalent. It all goes back, IMO, to dairy being neither poison nor panacea.

 

[Thalassa]

As for the lactose intolerant/cancer risk thing, it seems to me that you are attributing causation where none has been established. Correlation is not causation. And other studies have had other results- another recent study found that a protein in milk inhibits the growth of colon cancer. So like I said, the research is ambivalent. It all goes back, IMO, to dairy being neither poison nor panacea.

I think there is a strong possibility though that most Westerners are more likely to be biased towards milk than away from it. In the end, my point stands that it seems unnecessary and possibly even harmful to promote dairy the way it has been aggressively promoted in the United States, and this has a lot to do with marketing more than medicine. A lot of Western people seem highly unaware of how marketing of food, beverages and yes pharmaceutical products, is swaying people towards a commercial bias rather than a science-based one. That is why I don't think it's wise at all to discount this research that is coming up, because if I weren't here and the much more academic Tellenbach weren't here, you would all be congratulating and agreeing with each other about "those damn hippies. "

 

[prplchknz]

this thread has taught me to be quiet. I went to walmart last night because my room mate wanted to do a cleanse (which i think is bs) so i was in the pharmacy section and I wandered cuz there was nothing of interest to me, so then I saw the line thing for the pharmacy (to pick up prescripitions) and they had signs (entrance and exit or something) and I thought they were ipads so I touch one, disappointed that they weren't which would be a good idea for stores to have. especially those hippy stores where's it 450 dollars for something tht doesn't even work or hasn't been proven to work on a large scale. because actually any store and all stores should have this because I get really bored shopping. and ok so what's their advantage? they could brain wash us even more.

 

[á´…eparted]

I think there is a strong possibility though that most Westerners are more likely to be biased towards milk than away from it. In the end, my point stands that it seems unnecessary and possibly even harmful to promote dairy the way it has been aggressively promoted in the United States, and this has a lot to do with marketing more than medicine. A lot of Western people seem highly unaware of how marketing of food, beverages and yes pharmaceutical products, is swaying people towards a commercial bias rather than a science-based one. That is why I don't think it's wise at all to discount this research that is coming up, because if I weren't here and the much more academic Tellenbach weren't here, you would all be congratulating and agreeing with each other about "those damn hippies. "

Your point does not stand, several of us have contested it and you have just rejected it by trying to paint explanations as opinion, when they are factual statements on what it actually is. It's distortion and misrepresentation. Also, the suggestion that commertial induststry is trying to sway the public away from a science based approach is not correct, and the suggestion of it is completely ironic. Many of the groups (though not all), in particular the loud ones that garner attention are themselves anti-science (in the sense that they don't understand what they're pushing, and they misrepresent it).

Research is not being dicounted, it's simply not being weighted with heavy consideration until strong enough evidence appears that garners a need for evaluation and change.

 

[kyuuei]

I am not talking about individuals liking dairy but rather the aggressive celebrity endorsement surrounding dairy in the West, and the invention of substances like Lactaise, creating a false reality where dairy is fabulous for everyone. Even you seem to believe people get osteoporosis without milk, but there have actually been studies linking dairy consumption to INCREASED osteoporosis, not the other way around. Caucasian women have a similar risk for osteoporosis to Asian women, apart from African Americans and Hispanic population, despite milk consumption being normative in most Caucasian societies.

I'm saying people get osteoporosis without adequate types and amounts of calcium. And milk, cheese (made out of milk), and yogurt (also made out of milk) are all winners in that category. For some reason, even high vegetable diets seem frequently deficient in calcium and vitamin D. Vegetables have calcium.. Milk contains calcium, vitamin D due to law, complete protein, fat, and carbs. It's cheap, and readily available, and necessary for many people that are living on a poor man's diet whether you live in a foodie mecca or in a food desert in Detroit.

Weight bearing exercise is also omitted from many women in general, which tends to make them prone to osteoporosis. Genetics play a role as well. So calcium isn't really the only factor--but then people don't tend to drink milk solely for its calcium properties. Milk is in nearly all dairy products unless you pay 2-5x the amount for froofy whole foods stuff. For lactose intolerant people, for like $2 more you can buy lactase-treated milk and it's still far cheaper overall. So, yeah, it was widely advertised.. because it's the cheapest and most agreeable thing to advertise. I'm sure the dairy industry was thrilled and had lots of says, but advertising isn't invalidating to the product. Kids aren't going to start magically liking collard greens, and neither are many adults. Not all adults even like milk and it's super popular. When you're thinking bigger terms and globally, you have to make something that's great for all types of people. Milk, cheese, and yogurt get along with populations far easier than collard greens and bok choy--and milk has added benefits of complete macronutrients as well, and being easier to access and cheaper. I completely get why it's popular. And it tastes good and can be cooked with and used a hundred ways. THere's really only so many ways you can dress up collard greens though. There's not much versatility there.

I've seen the studies about dairy increasing it, but I also doubt that those studies say the recommended amounts are what cause the increase vs an overload consistently in the diet.

While I respect the general tone of your post, I also have to disagree with you that acne is principally a hygeine issue. ...while proper hygeine helps, both high sugar diets and dairy consumption have been linked to chronic acne. Not in all people, which is why the evidence is inconclusive, but removing dairy has worked for a significant number of people.

Diet is frequently suggested.. no study has said, "Yes, this food type causes this for sure." Nothing's for sure in science.. but avoiding nearly all sugar and dairy consumption to cure maybe 2 more of the blackheads you have? Unless you're having allergic reactions, chances are that intervention is only going to be effective for a very select group of people. No harm in trying, sure, but I don't see huge benefits in comparison to using a bit of zinc or sulfur on my face since I have to do that whether I eat those things or not. No sugar didn't give me results. No dairy didn't change anything. And I'm really not alone in that.

Same with mucus. I have met people who are congested nearly 24/7...instead of taking excessive amounts of Claritin, it might do them good to at least try to eliminate dairy.

If their allergies are to pollen, or a certain tree common to the area, or to everything, or if they're dehydrated (many Americans tend to be), it doesn't matter if you drink milk or not, that factor isn't going to make congestion disappear. cutting out milk doesn't stop seasonal allergies or other conditions. It might exacerbate them, sure, but if you're stuck taking medicine either way for the condition I don't see the huge difference in drinking milk then. If I feel super congested that day, I don't drink milk typically, but I also don't need allergy pills as often as I once did. When I needed allergy pills I needed them whether milk was adding icing on the cake or not. The whole damn cake's still there even if I scrape that icing off.