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View Poll Results: Do you believe in the farmacy trend?

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  • I'm a hippy and I'm proud of it. Also, I have proof it works. No aluminum DO for me!

    3 7.69%
  • I'm kind of a hippy, but I was brought up that way, and/or I like moral aspects of the trend.

    4 10.26%
  • This is a thing? Who's Jenny McCarthy? I mean, I guess both are fine.

    4 10.26%
  • Science trumps turnips all day. Beets and apples won't keep you from having eczema hunny, sorry.

    24 61.54%
  • I don't really care at all. I can't afford either of them anyways.

    4 10.26%
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  1. #301
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    The Detox Scam: How to spot it, and how to avoid it � Science-Based Medicine

    Someone brought this topic up on facebook today, and it's a great one and a personal one because I was totally swept up into this food fad thing this year--and I feel like a numbskull still about it. And naturally the best way to feel better for me is to recover by finding knowledge to prevent it from happening again.

    The story of detox diets is not a new one, it's been played for years and years.. being spun into nearly every diet fad ever. Recently, it's been spun into juicing.. which is potentially pretty harmful for the body. "Spend 14 days drinking nothing but juice and it will rid you of your horrible cheeseburger sins! Only $149.99 a week! Delivered to your door! You don't even have to step foot outside and you're already going to be healthier for ordering!" Only diets and fashion could trick people into thinking being dizzy, nauseous, cramping in pain, and fatigued is a good thing and the right thing for them to do.



    The only ways to truly detox are to eat right, exercise, get sleep, drink water, be proactive about your health, and be proactive about your environmental and psychological health.
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  2. #302
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    If there is any hippy website I hate, it's greenmedinfo.

    New Study Signals Wheat-Autism Link | GreenMedInfo | Blog Entry

    Not only do the massively profit off of the people visiting the site and, in turn, buying their products.. but they twist science constantly to their cause. They purposefully mislead people. One of my friends always links their bullshit, and she's totally swept up by them. I'm not angry at her.. I'm angry at the site. The site throws around just enough science-y sounding things to convince people but twists it in such a delicate way as to make themselves sound right while, in fact, evading any true misrepresentations and allowing people to 'assume' the misrepresentations they lead them directly into.

    And as vaccines + autism are showing no link and more and more people are believing it.. people are quickly looking for new sources of blame.

    Wheat has the same problems as anything else though. Wheat has been consumed for centuries, autism is a recent epidemic (though the prevalence rates are a bit of a mystery because it is a recent diagnosis), and the two just don't correlate even close enough to be a source of blame. But throw some IgG's in there, and some protein-this-and-that, and suddenly you have something scary sounding enough.


    I really think we need a name for these guys. they aren't quite hippies (as I can associate peace-sign-throwing, weed-smoking loving hippies of the 60s with the word too), they're not hipsters at all though they have that 'I rebel against the norm' attitude, they aren't foodies because that ranges from Andrew Zimmerman style all the way to whole foods only persons and raw vegans. And Raw vegans don't cover the boundaries, many vegetarians are completely sensible, and vegans even have a bit of merit to them in and of themselves.


    No, this is a particular trend of .. duped people, pseudo science, buzzword overkill, and angry resentful stuff without really seeing who's profitting off of all of these movements and paradoxical rebel-against-american-mentalities-with-american-mentalities. I was thinking about the neckbeard thread where I was unaware there was a perfect term for the females--legbeards. There's got to be a cutesy term that defines this.

    So if anyone knows of a good term for these guys I'm all ears.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  3. #303
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    During pledge drives, the local PBS stations frequently broadcast lectures on health topics. William Davis' "Wheat Belly" and David Perlmutter's "Grain Brain" both argue that eating "grasses" is bad for you because they contain proteins that cause inflammation in the brain and gluten is just one protein of several that cause inflammation. I'd suggest people read their books and look at the evidence for themselves.

    I think part of the reason why these types of books and websites are so popular these days is because the medical establishment (both in academia and in government) have let us down. People are getting fatter and more and more people are getting diabetes and they don't know why despite following the government's advice on eating less cholesterol and saturated fats.
    "Do not attempt to count the number of moles on Morgan Freeman's face; it'll just frustrate you and distract from the film." me

  4. #304
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    During pledge drives, the local PBS stations frequently broadcast lectures on health topics. William Davis' "Wheat Belly" and David Perlmutter's "Grain Brain" both argue that eating "grasses" is bad for you because they contain proteins that cause inflammation in the brain and gluten is just one protein of several that cause inflammation. I'd suggest people read their books and look at the evidence for themselves.

    I think part of the reason why these types of books and websites are so popular these days is because the medical establishment (both in academia and in government) have let us down. People are getting fatter and more and more people are getting diabetes and they don't know why despite following the government's advice on eating less cholesterol and saturated fats.
    It goes beyond the medical establishment not holding their weight in the eyes of the people. This is a societal problem at its core, if anything, doctors are frequently being wrongfully blamed for feeding into societal norms. As I said in the OP, a lot of these markets make it seem like doctors just LOVE loading people up with scripts, charging them for procedures, and testing them like lab rats instead of genuinely caring about improving health. It's just not that black and white. Some doctors not being excellent doctors does not mean the profession is at odds with these major movements for demands on better food labeling, awareness of true nutrition, etc. The professions frequently agree with each other on the major points. It's the minor details they disagree on... But because everyone is different, and people need to know their special unique snowflake body and personality may be treated the same (like a snowflake) but no one is more aware of their own unique traits than themselves. The problem is, the same fallacies and beliefs they ding doctors for frequently are ALSO being used by hippy-style diets. Raw food diets, 100% vegans, etc. all use the same logical fallacies and misrepresentations that they get so angry at the modern medical industry and government guidelines for using.

    There is no evidence that being vegan is better for your health--and in fact, it's frequently shown to need supplementation to sustain BECAUSE it isn't advantageous for healthy. The more restrictions you place on a diet, the more you need to be active to make up the gaps. There are other reasons for being vegan, but pretending moral reasons for veganism is the same as a superior diet for the human body does not make it so.

    (There's a whole catch-22 about antibiotics and people forcing hospital ratings to go down in satisfaction when doctors refuse to give abx for viral infections, which in turn forces the hospitals to write scripts to make people feel better (because you can't be dishonest about scripts being given either) vs the doctor looking lazy (it only takes one wrong diagnosis by a new doctor to make an explosion of 'this HOSPITAL isn't treating patients!), and then in turn creating bugs. That is only part doctor issues. It's easy to tell doctors 'hey, you must stop this now.' You can pull their practice if they don't comply. It's impossible to tell the American people to do something, and still keep their interest in coming in for their health.)

    The government is slow to change and culturally they're 10 years behind the rest of society.. they always will be. I don't deny that plays in a factor. But there's something more innate in us, and more insidious in money making opportunities, that plays a heavy hand into this. Billions and trillions are spent on figuring out what advertisements work on people, what doesn't work, what tiny pieces of body language and clues influence us. Every bit of that research is put to use.. and the intentions aren't there to benefit people. Detox diets and fads sell because people know what the human psyche wants and they provide that and twist it into a subconscious need.

    I think there are tons of well-meaning personnel working very hard to offer healthy lifestyles for others, and I don't deny that at all. But the medical establishment aren't the bad guys. The medical establishment frequently introduces healthy lifestyle adjustments based on research they do (I noticed this, I did years of research, and Boom the Orwellian diet exists now.. It was published by a doctor using western techniques of data collection) and, like I've said before, people interested in nutrition are promoting true nutrition based on known science and upcoming research. Now are you going to see that on E!TV? Probably not. But the information is out there and available. And growing.

    So how do we combat this insidious onset of advertisements, schemes, cultural lifestyles (things as they've always been), people making health claims unsupported by any evidence, and personal accounts influencing the hearts and minds? We combat it with research, and knowledge, and impartial unbiased accounts. Objectivity. Who's actually living longer? Why? Is it the food, the lifestyle, all of it, is it possible to replicate? Can it help heal others? These are questions nutrition research tries to answer. And the results are really interesting and continue to surprise. People hype it all up out of proportion, and it turns into a crazy thing, but some of these food trends are useful. Though I will be the first to admit gluten-free-everything annoyed the crap out of me when it first came out, it's important. I as annoyed because people were just deciding to be gluten free. No tolerance testing, typically done with unknown allergens, no nothing, just.. some bullshit about candida and boom, gluten free just like that. I always get wary of new fad diets that start off with people blindly switching. Even so, my annoyance is no reason to discredit the diet at all. It's an important discovery, and more and more people are showing that cooking certain vegetables, recognizing phytic acid in grains, etc. all play an insidious effect and role in the diet. Small details creating a bigger picture.

    You're absolutely right, gluten can seriously cause inflammation at an insidious onset for those intolerant to it.. and without a tolerance test in the presence of vague symptoms, who knows? There's an allergic spectrum ranging from mild intolerance (one you might not notice immediate effects on the daily) to anaphylactic shock. But that's why research is soo so important, and the validity of research needs serious establishment. It can distinguish whether it's worth giving up gluten for everyone, for some, to moderate it so inflammation isn't a big concern throughout the lifespan, or for no one that doesn't have confirmed celiac. Right not GF is the hot new thing, for good reason. People are seeing results. But is it the result of less processed foods or from the gluten itself and awareness/consciousness and more home cooked foods vs take out they can no longer have? That's still out there, and it'll take time to see results that show that difference.

    I've mentioned on here I love the rawfoodsos blog and I love the sciencebasedmedicine blog because they both just sort of break things down to the nitty gritty. I like rawfood's message more and her intentions, vs sbm, but both have tons of merit on educating people and allowing them to make their own decisions. Grain belly or whatever it's called is one of the books highly supported by rawfoodsos for its serious basis in evidence based practice. It's something on my wishlist to read even, despite my love of breads. But that's the difference. It's based in evidence. Grain Belly is a wealth of knowledge and time and real effort. In comparison, Forks over Knives looks like Blue's Clues, with magic things being pulled out of pockets and cute squiggles being drawn on the paper. Guess which one is more appealing to the masses?

    The reasons why we're motivated need to fundamentally change. Every person that buys into the advertisements of pieces like Forks over Knives is also buying into the SAME advertisements that got that mom to take her family into McDonalds. They're the the same concepts being used to appeal to the masses. It is up to us as people to crave education, and knowledge, and ask critical questions.

    And I don't fault anyone for asking science the critical questions they do. Many western medical practices are absolutely worth asking. But for this piece, it isn't meant to highlight that. It's meant to highlight the other side of the coin. We're expected to question doctors and authority for western things.. but people like Food Babe don't want to be held accountable the same way they try to force doctors and producers to be held accountable. The folly works both ways... just like both industries are not truly at odds with each other, even if they disagree in some aspects.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge
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  5. #305
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    But the medical establishment aren't the bad guys. The medical establishment frequently introduces healthy lifestyle adjustments based on research they do (I noticed this, I did years of research, and Boom the Orwellian diet exists now..
    I don't think they're bad people, but you can't deny that they've failed to control the obesity and diabetes (metabolic syndrome) epidemic. They've also engaged in suppressing alternative treatments (vitamin C, laetrile, antineoplastons) to protect profits.

    You're correct about the power of advertising, but I haven't seen any counter advertisements from the medical establishment. I haven't seen a national educational campaign from the FDA or the surgeon general to fight obesity. I haven't seen them address the sodium problem or the processed food issues. I would argue that the medical establishment is part of the problem because of the food pyramid and the 12 servings of carbs that it recommends. They're also wrong about cholesterol and saturated fats and they've been ignoring many studies that would improve national health. Did you know that Finland drastically reduced the incidence of type I diabetes (by 90% in those taking 2000 IU) by feeding babies Vitamin D3 in the first year? Don't you think this type of information should be widely disseminated and put to practice by pediatricians?
    "Do not attempt to count the number of moles on Morgan Freeman's face; it'll just frustrate you and distract from the film." me

  6. #306
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I don't think they're bad people, but you can't deny that they've failed to control the obesity and diabetes (metabolic syndrome) epidemic. They've also engaged in suppressing alternative treatments (vitamin C, laetrile, antineoplastons) to protect profits.
    I don't think they've suppressed alternative treatments at all (many doctors, nurses, and practitioners report using Emergen-C and such all the time) and while yeah pharm is going to do pharm's thing and there's a LOT wrong with that system, it isn't all frowny-faces and gruel. There IS merit to a doctor making a professional opinion.. someone trying to cure their cancer with vitamin C because of a cute pinterest pic will not really be recommended to do so by any doctor.. but it isn't like they can stop people from trying either.

    The only way modern medicine can 'fix' the obesity epidemic is to take away free will and rights from citizens to eat what they want and do what they want. No one forces cheeseburgers down people's throats and then tells them to sit in bed all day watching True Blood. Excluding homeless and the extreme poor getting whatever is handed to them, most people CHOOSE those unhealthy lifestyles. Either by default (i.e. they never thought to look for alternatives) or by admission/denial (I eat fairly healthy, this is the way our people eat, I've always done things like this, etc.) Advertisement and marketing have a far greater hand in this than modern medicine ever will. Most modern medicine is trying to work against the things caused by these.. Doctors can't force people to choose healthy lifestyles.. but they can help people live long enough to realize the decision for themselves sometimes.

    To make matters worse, no one can agree on what's healthy. Just in this thread people massively disagreed on what constituted a healthy balanced diet, despite the premises being the same. Put that on a global scale and try to get everyone to comply with it. It ain't happenin'.

    You're correct about the power of advertising, but I haven't seen any counter advertisements from the medical establishment. I haven't seen a national educational campaign from the FDA or the surgeon general to fight obesity.
    Well, first, it really isn't their jobs. As a whole, medicine is a TON of aspects.. nutrition is just a tiny aspect of that big picture. Just like what you eat isn't 100% of who you are and what you do. The government DOES have campaigns for healthy eating all the time (have you never heard of my plate??) and I literally worked with people this year that do nothing but pass out pamphlets and go around to poorer communities and translate educational information for people for healthy living--what is portion control, what constitutes a serving, what eating the rainbow means. Those things are out there and the government and medicine DOES push it. They just don't PROFIT off of it. (They do, but not directly.) They don't have an interest in convincing people what is best.. they're just offering the information so people can make informed decisions if they so choose. It's more passive, but it's actually the better way to go especially when you're representing government. In comparison.. A detox juice box set profits immensely from that, directly, and immediately. So who's more interested in getting people into health? They both have interest, but for different reasons. Both profit, but in different ways. The juice box set doesn't need government a-okay's though to make it happen and has the power of advertising on its side. In comparison, the government advertising things immediately turns people off generally.

    On top of that, like I said, the government is usually behind the curve with mass updates. Unlike the medical field of practice, educating civilians on every tiny update and research study means people going "omg I just got used to the food pyramid and now you're saying wheat is bad for me?! Wtf government!" You can see how easily people will just reject the whole thing entirely with one tiny adjustment. The government has to play it careful because they aren't talking to one specific type of people. Working with the masses is hard.

    I haven't seen them address the sodium problem or the processed food issues.
    There's recently been legislature for new food labels, including ensuring more notes on what ingredients are, the truer portion sizes in containers, and easier to understand number systems are in place. I don't know what you mean about people lacking interest in health from the government side. They're SUPER interested in it. Anything that can save them tons of money in medical bills is interesting. But change is slow. And people have to tip toe through it at a steady rate.

    I would argue that the medical establishment is part of the problem because of the food pyramid and the 12 servings of carbs that it recommends. They're also wrong about cholesterol and saturated fats and they've been ignoring many studies that would improve national health.
    Many nutritionists took issue with both the food pyramid and even the new system of myplate. They did away with the food pyramid for that very reason and myplate takes a significantly better approach of half vegetables and fruits, 1/4 protein and 1/4 carbs with a small serving a dairy. Does it perfectly align with research available? No. But does it provide easy to understand barney style guidelines for the masses? Yes. And the BEST information IS available.. anyone who wants access to it can eventually find it.

    Did you know that Finland drastically reduced the incidence of type I diabetes (by 90% in those taking 2000 IU) by feeding babies Vitamin D3 in the first year? Don't you think this type of information should be widely disseminated and put to practice by pediatricians?
    Vitamin D — Health Professional Fact Sheet
    Not on it's own I don't. You have to take into account all the little details. Finland isn't the US. That doesn't make the information useless, but let me give you a rfsos example.

    Forks over Knives made the mention that rats in the China Study were dying of high protein diets because of heart disease, and that animal meat was the cause of the high protein diet. They used a human example of saying people lost their livestock in WW2 occupation and thus led healthier lives as evidenced by them not dying of heart disease issues.
    When the data was analyzed with more scrutiny, rats were dying at impossibly high rates *premature to the age they should be* from the low protein diets. They weren't dying from heart disease because their livers were failing without sufficient protein in their diet. And when they compared other statistical data from the country in that timeframe, they realized what went up drastically wasn't vegetable intake.. It was Fish. And on top of that, even THAT data could be faulty because there were communicable diseases breaking out during that time from other-dirty-country-invading-syndrome.. People were dying before they could die of either issue, so we'll never truly know. On top of all of that, heart disease is a sign of longevity in a population as a total. Chronic disease related deaths mean your country is doing well. When you compare it to developing countries, majority of deaths are long before the body would truly expire on its own due to infections and disease. Chronic conditions is a luxury death in comparison. But blaming animal meat for the deaths seems like a laughable stretch in the face of all the aspects of the data.

    Do you see how easily data can get twisted around? It isn't that I don't believe data like that isn't useful. But standing alone doesn't tell me much at all. It doesn't convince me that that high amount is necessary. Especially when the manifestations for D deficiency (like rickets) have been eliminated massively with government d-fortification voluntary support.

    The government already DOES emphasize vitamin D as essential, and has for a long time. You might not agree with where they draw the line, but they drew that line based on data. Pediatricians DO screen for vitamin deficiencies all the time, and probably a quarter of my barney-nurse-pediatrics class was just 'which vitamin deficiency does this child have? How do you know? What can you do about it? How do you educate the parents on it?'
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge
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  7. #307
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    No doctor held a gun to my head and forced me to overeat and undermove and become fat. I did that all on my own. And reversing that trend has been as simple as adding a lot of activity, then figuring out what my body needs to run that level of activity and eating a little less than that. Which is exactly what they've been telling me to do since I was about ten years old. (The hard part has been ridding myself of the dogma that was fucking with my head and telling me I needed to eat low carb or vegan or paleo or blah blah blah blah blah blah to fix my shit.)
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  8. #308
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    I don't think they've suppressed alternative treatments at all (many doctors, nurses, and practitioners report using Emergen-C and such all the time) and while yeah pharm is going to do pharm's thing and there's a LOT wrong with that system, it isn't all frowny-faces and gruel.
    There are books about the suppression of Vitamin C (2 botched clinical trials by the Mayo Clinic), 1 botched trial of laetrile (also by the Mayo Clinic and scientific fraud by Sloan Kettering), and the NCI's botched clinical trial of antineoplastons.

    Here's a quote from "The Burzynski Breakthrough":

    ...the blood tests proved patients in the NCI-sponsored trial were receiving doses 53 times smaller than Burzynski's own patients. "It is a dosage-sensitive medication," Burzynski said. "These dosages guaranteed the results would be poor.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    The only way modern medicine can 'fix' the obesity epidemic is to take away free will and rights from citizens to eat what they want and do what they want.
    So why are the French not as fat as Americans and Australians? I don't think American children and the public have been properly educated on nutrition. Quite the opposite ---the government has steered Americans away from meat (sat'd fats and cholesterol) and towards fattening carbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei
    Finland isn't the US. That doesn't make the information useless, but let me give you a rfsos example.
    You gotta read this blog entry:



    Vitamin D Deficiency and Type 1 Diabetes
    "Do not attempt to count the number of moles on Morgan Freeman's face; it'll just frustrate you and distract from the film." me

  9. #309
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Americans are breathtakingly inactive. The French are not.

    Edited to add- the Japanese also have far lower incidence of obesity, but they eat tons of rice and noodles. They also walk a few thousand steps a day more than Americans, on average.

  10. #310
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    To be sure, Americans are filling up on carbohydrates like pasta, potatoes, and bread. In the early '70s we ate 136 pounds (62 kilograms) of flour and cereal products per capita, and now it's 200 pounds (91 kilograms).
    "We went wrong by allowing the American Medical Association and the United States Department of Agriculture to say: 'You've got to go on a low-fat diet.' They failed to take into account that when people do that, they increase their carbohydrates." Robert Atkins

    Why Are We So Fat?

    Yes, the Japanese eat lots of rice and ramen (carbs), but not compared to Americans (just a hunch).
    "Do not attempt to count the number of moles on Morgan Freeman's face; it'll just frustrate you and distract from the film." me

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