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View Poll Results: Do you believe in the farmacy trend?

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39. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm a hippy and I'm proud of it. Also, I have proof it works. No aluminum DO for me!

    3 7.69%
  • I'm kind of a hippy, but I was brought up that way, and/or I like moral aspects of the trend.

    4 10.26%
  • This is a thing? Who's Jenny McCarthy? I mean, I guess both are fine.

    4 10.26%
  • Science trumps turnips all day. Beets and apples won't keep you from having eczema hunny, sorry.

    24 61.54%
  • I don't really care at all. I can't afford either of them anyways.

    4 10.26%
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Thread: Nature VS Modern Medicine and weeding out what truly works.

  1. #281
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    seriously kyuuei, someone who starved their baby is A RELIGIOUS NUT not a trendy vegan. Veganism is partly religion to some people, though many people do it for health reasons, and that mother is to vegans what the parents who let their children die of xyz are to Christians, do you not get that? Anyone who has a baby had nine months to inform themselves on nutrition, that's not about Pinterest, it's about someone's religion.
    I can't say I know a TON of vegan people, but I know plenty of vegetarians and foodies and stuff like that, and I volunteer from time to time at the raw food co-op here in Houston that's run by a total raw food nut. But I like her personality so I go. Don't have a problem with a diet, but it is a philosophical choice, not a nutritionally superior one alone.

    Why I’m No Longer Vegetarian | Urban Antonio
    “Forks Over Knives”: Is the Science Legit? (A Review and Critique) | Raw Food SOS

    For every one that's found a great nutritional basis for veganism and vegetarianism, there are those who have found it quite useless for them.

    But it isn't the diet that I take issue with at all, even if it wasn't nutritionally superior or even healthy. (McDonalds certainly isn't healthy, and I opt for it sometimes.)

    It is definitely the fact that they treat this diet as a god-send like religion. It isn't just one person.

    Freelee the banana girl is clearly off her rocker, and she constantly bitches about how young people are dying of cancer because they don't eat vegetable diets.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsCoCoS62w
    Even the girl I SUPER like watching, I actively follow her on youtube and I heart her tons.. But she's religious about this. It isn't a diet for her, it's a whole lifestyle. At least she isn't saying that it can cure diabetes type 1 (I got super worried when that video got released about diabetes) but this is a very real philosophy for her. That her body can restore itself with her raw foods. And sure, she prefaces it with, "Don't try this necessarily, I'm not a doctor! Just saying my experience" but that really isn't the message many people will walk away with, and especially coupling that with black widow spider bites rarely being lethal and don't have much in the way of treatment unless you have overall symptoms so most people recover on their own regardless of eating habits, you instantly have a raw food healing.

    It's very religious-y, and people don't have to be extreme like those examples I posted to WANT to believe in something. The idea of 'farmacy' is a very real idea being spread and it's spreading like wildfire. And, no coincidence, money is flowing like water towards that fire. A lot of people have spent a LOT of money and been duped by the idea that veganism and whole foods is all they need to get healthy. They WANT to believe that's all they have to do to be healthy people. They spend $40 on a can of super powder drink from 17 jungles because they get 100x more enzymes (aka protein) than they would from their regular boring cheap diet.

    But that isn't the truth, and that's the message I frequently hear. The more local, and whole your food is, the more healthy you will be. And that's pretty misleading. Health involves far more than just food, even if it is an important part of health.. it isn't at all the only factor or contributor to it. I've definitely been duped by it before I decided to get educated, and I figured SO many people talking about it had to be true. And then I immediately felt like an old person that ordered a tap light on TV at 3am when I got very sick on a vegan diet. And I wasted all of that money. and it's gone, and it's never coming back. Money I could have spent on things that didn't make me sick. Like traveling, and adventuring. I could have gone snowboarding 3x over in the same amount of money I spent on whole foods and juice and smoothies and shit. I didn't feel healthier.. I gained weight, in all the wrong ways, and I got very sick. It's definitely not for everyone, and it is a decision that ought to be discussed before jumping into.
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  2. #282
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    I can't say I know a TON of vegan people, but I know plenty of vegetarians and foodies and stuff like that, and I volunteer from time to time at the raw food co-op here in Houston that's run by a total raw food nut. But I like her personality so I go. Don't have a problem with a diet, but it is a philosophical choice, not a nutritionally superior one alone.

    Why I’m No Longer Vegetarian | Urban Antonio
    “Forks Over Knives”: Is the Science Legit? (A Review and Critique) | Raw Food SOS

    For every one that's found a great nutritional basis for veganism and vegetarianism, there are those who have found it quite useless for them.

    But it isn't the diet that I take issue with at all, even if it wasn't nutritionally superior or even healthy. (McDonalds certainly isn't healthy, and I opt for it sometimes.)

    It is definitely the fact that they treat this diet as a god-send like religion. It isn't just one person.

    Freelee the banana girl is clearly off her rocker, and she constantly bitches about how young people are dying of cancer because they don't eat vegetable diets.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsCoCoS62w
    Even the girl I SUPER like watching, I actively follow her on youtube and I heart her tons.. But she's religious about this. It isn't a diet for her, it's a whole lifestyle. At least she isn't saying that it can cure diabetes type 1 (I got super worried when that video got released about diabetes) but this is a very real philosophy for her. That her body can restore itself with her raw foods. And sure, she prefaces it with, "Don't try this necessarily, I'm not a doctor! Just saying my experience" but that really isn't the message many people will walk away with, and especially coupling that with black widow spider bites rarely being lethal and don't have much in the way of treatment unless you have overall symptoms so most people recover on their own regardless of eating habits, you instantly have a raw food healing.

    It's very religious-y, and people don't have to be extreme like those examples I posted to WANT to believe in something. The idea of 'farmacy' is a very real idea being spread and it's spreading like wildfire. And, no coincidence, money is flowing like water towards that fire. A lot of people have spent a LOT of money and been duped by the idea that veganism and whole foods is all they need to get healthy. They WANT to believe that's all they have to do to be healthy people. They spend $40 on a can of super powder drink from 17 jungles because they get 100x more enzymes (aka protein) than they would from their regular boring cheap diet.

    But that isn't the truth, and that's the message I frequently hear. The more local, and whole your food is, the more healthy you will be. And that's pretty misleading. Health involves far more than just food, even if it is an important part of health.. it isn't at all the only factor or contributor to it. I've definitely been duped by it before I decided to get educated, and I figured SO many people talking about it had to be true. And then I immediately felt like an old person that ordered a tap light on TV at 3am when I got very sick on a vegan diet. And I wasted all of that money. and it's gone, and it's never coming back. Money I could have spent on things that didn't make me sick. Like traveling, and adventuring. I could have gone snowboarding 3x over in the same amount of money I spent on whole foods and juice and smoothies and shit. I didn't feel healthier.. I gained weight, in all the wrong ways, and I got very sick. It's definitely not for everyone, and it is a decision that ought to be discussed before jumping into.
    Forks Over Knives, the actual documentary, is based on nutrition, very little philosophy involved. The doctor who created the program is an old man who used to push milk and meat in the fifties and sixties, and he questioned everything he knew based on medical research, on humans, not because of animal rights or peta. I think you should probably watch the actual documentary and read vegan for life before you say all vegans are philosophical. Yes philosophical vegans exist and some of them eat poorly but some eat well, with the type that are purely philosophical you get junk food vegans and so forth. Yes, people go vegan for their health, too. You were on a raw food diet thats not the same as following a nutritionally balanced vegan diet, in fact the nutritionists who wrote vegan for life advise against the restrictions of a raw food diet, it works for relatively few people. There's a right way and a wrong way to be vegan, just like there's a right way and a wrong way to eat meat or go low carb.

    By that understand that people are free to eat purely by philosophy or culture, but those people may end up weighing 400 lbs because of their devotion to fast food, or may end up sick because they completely ignored nutrition when they went vegan and tried to live on lettuce and Tofutti products.

    But don't twist things so that you imagine every vegan is some nut who would let their kid die, or who wouldn't rationally use an animal product if it was actually needed for some one to live. A lot of vegans are quiet, they're just people who eat differently than you do. You would probably be shocked at how many people are vegan and how healthy vegans can be. I met so many vegans, and even vegan children doing yoga in Los Angeles.

    As for philosophical vegans, there are also Buddhist vegans, they aren't all PETA members.

    Personally I am mainly doing it for health reasons, but also philosophical reasons on a smaller scale. However, I am not opposed to other forms of vegetarianism, or being Flexitarian and no I'm not going to kill myself if I have a little milk or something. I actually did not give up honey. I don't think you know a lot about vegans, there are about ten different kinds, ranging from nutrition only to exclusion of all animal products to "mostly vegan" or weekend vegans.

    P.S. if you need tangible proof of beautiful healthy lifelong vegans it's very easy to find them if you were not so biased by your bad personal experience. ..all of the Phoenix children were lifelong vegans, Joaquin and Rain, not just River, and if you watch Forks Over Knives instead of just searching for critiques of it, you will see some of the healthiest looking old people you have probably seen anywhere. Just admit that maybe you did it wrong or did it wrong for your body, or that you may be one of the people who happen to need more animal products.

  3. #283
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Array Mole's Avatar
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    The Faith Healers of West Africa first of all rejected the medical interpretation of Ebola, and rejected the medical workers, and even killed a few of them. But eventually the Faith Healers succumbed to Ebola, and the medical interpretation holds.

    Of course West Africa is poor and reality can't be held at bay for long, quite unlike the prosperous West where we can believe whatever fantasies we like, and have the wherewithall to avoid reality.

    In fact at a deep and unconscious level we still believe in and practise Faith Healing. For instance, we will not elect a President of the United States of America unless they are a person of Faith. So unconsciously we regard the President as a Faith Healer.

    And even in far off Australia we regularly hear the President say his job is healing.

  4. #284
    Senior Member Array ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    I can understand that some of the naturalists and naturopaths are over the top and really not grounded in anything empirical. But how people can speak, like industrialization has no consequence on human health and the environment, is beyond me. Or that continuing industrialization won't have consequences.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  5. #285
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Forks Over Knives, the actual documentary, is based on nutrition, very little philosophy involved.
    ...
    Forks Over Knives instead of just searching for critiques of it, you will see some of the healthiest looking old people you have probably seen anywhere. Just admit that maybe you did it wrong or did it wrong for your body, or that you may be one of the people who happen to need more animal products.
    I've seen the documentary. It's a lot of heart felt stories and a lot of opinions and based on very little facts. I even AGREE with the message--eat healthy, incorporate wholesome foods in your diet, etc. But they are clearly eating a vegan diet, and there is a very real reason they avoided labeling it vegan even though it clearly is that. They are clearly claiming ALL animal products are bad, which is what veganism does, despite research showing fish and other products like that are perfectly acceptable choices for healthy lifestyles.

    And some, many, of the stuff they're quoting is just wrong. The China Study was completely flawed, just because a study exists doesn't mean it's good. The foundations for the china study were wrong, and the study itself was just a mess.

    The critique is not about whether the message is agreed with or not--the author agrees with the message to an extent. But. It lays out some extremely important details being completely, and very conveniently, overlooked for the sake of saying a message they believe in. And if a message is that true and virtuous, the you don't need to skirt around the truth to get it out there to people.

    I'm saying, yet again, veganism is fine, but not fine for me, or many people, and it is a very very restricted diet and I'm now wary of anything that restricted without some hard science showing real results that couldn't be had otherwise. The data they're showcasing in the documentary is fatally flawed in several areas, not just one area. That's why it's so long--they're using the data and research based on the data of the documentary to see if the data actually lines up. And it doesn't.

    Just because it's a real documentary doesn't mean everything they say is accurate. And that's what the critique aims to do. I can show you a hundred textbooks that say faulty information about history for the sake of making a country of origin look better.

    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    I can understand that some of the naturalists and naturopaths are over the top and really not grounded in anything empirical. But how people can speak, like industrialization has no consequence on human health and the environment, is beyond me. Or that continuing industrialization won't have consequences.
    Naturalists actually make natural medicine take a lot of steps backwards with the stuff they pull imo. I can easily see myself not wanting to be associated, as a new researcher, with homeopathic medicine when so much pseudoscience is pumped out of it all the time. You want to gain credentials, because those are super useful for stuff in a completely valid way. It isn't that industrialization lacks consequences.. but the people with good ideas aren't promoting them in the right way, or the people that want good ideas aren't getting them the right way. I mean, look how long it's taking for tiny house movements for example to get mainstream? Now they are, but people lived in small houses for ages before all of this industrialization. No one promoted their lifestyle, everyone conformed to it and didn't push back hard enough. And now Houston is one the very few cities left without restricted building codes for unrestricted land. And even they have housing codes.
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  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    I can understand that some of the naturalists and naturopaths are over the top and really not grounded in anything empirical. But how people can speak, like industrialization has no consequence on human health and the environment, is beyond me. Or that continuing industrialization won't have consequences.
    China, India and Indonesia are industrialising while Australia is post-industrial.

    Australia is re-tribalising in the global village.

    Industry is based on print, while the global village is based on the electric media like Central.

    Industrialisation in China in the last 20 years has raised 350 million Chinese from abject poverty to prosperity.

    And post-industrialisation has given Australians the longest life spans and the best health.

    But best of all, post-industrial Australia works co-operatively with industrialising China to the benefit of us both. Just the other day the President of China, Xi Jinping, addressed our two Houses of Parliament and signed a far reaching free trade agreement.

  7. #287
    Senior Member Array ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    China, India and Indonesia are industrialising while Australia is post-industrial.

    Australia is re-tribalising in the global village.

    Industry is based on print, while the global village is based on the electric media like Central.

    Industrialisation in China in the last 20 years has raised 350 million Chinese from abject poverty to prosperity.

    And post-industrialisation has given Australians the longest life spans and the best health.

    But best of all, post-industrial Australia works co-operatively with industrialising China to the benefit of us both. Just the other day the President of China, Xi Jinping, addressed our two Houses of Parliament and signed a far reaching free trade agreement.
    Yes and it has given them hundreds of inflammatory diseases and autoimmune disorders, which were very rare a hundred years ago. While western medicine has increased life-expectancy, industrial environments and modern lifestyles have decreased life-quality for millions in the west. Lots of people are chronically ill. I've read that as many as 40-50% of americans have a chronic condition of some sort. Life quality is just as important as life-expectancy. It's really a double edged sword.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  8. #288
    Senior Member Array prplchknz's Avatar
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    someone posted this on my facebook feed: Meet the Man Called

    At first, he succumbed to the wishes of the doctor and decided to go in for surgery.
    read was skepitical then did a google search and found this:
    Yes, Chris beat cancer, but it wasn’t quackery that cured him � Science-Based Medicine

    which is saying yes he didn't do chemo therapy but mentions he did have surgery and other treatments, even this is an important piece of info left out of the orginal article.

    Now here’s the thing. The primary treatment for stage III colorectal cancer is still complete surgical resection. Everything else is icing on the cake. To illustrate this point, I ran an Adjuvant! Online estimate for the benefit of chemotherapy for a patient like Wark, who was 26 at the time of his diagnosis. This is a bit hard to do because I don’t have complete staging information. However, Wark was nice enough to inform his readers that he had four positive lymph nodes and a “golf ball sized tumor.” The latter bit of information doesn’t help, because for purposes of staging size doesn’t matter so much as how far the tumor has invaded through the layers of the wall of the colon, but the first bit of information about how many positive lymph nodes were discovered is quite useful because it tells me, when combined with the size of the cancer, that the original tumor was probably not stage IIIA. Most likely, it was stage IIIB, although it is certainly possible that he had stage IIIC disease. For purposes of discussion, I am going to assume he had stage IIIB disease. It’s close enough to make the point, and if he had stage IIIC disease, it would only make the case for chemotherapy stronger.
    so he did have surgery, I'm sure the diet helped, but it didn't cure his cancer. first article is progaganda, and I hate it because people who get diagnosed with colon cancer might miss the part where he had surgery and try to cure with diet alone and end up dying themselves.

    Mr. Wark’s odds of surviving 5 years with surgery alone would only be 30%, with FOLFOX chemotherapy increasing the odds to around 55%, nearly double. Of course, even in this extreme case, 30% is around a one in three chance; so survival without chemotherapy would not be that unusual. Although he would, in this case, have to be quite a bit luckier than in the case of stage IIIC disease, his survival would not be so unusual that it could be attributed to whatever woo he decided to partake of. Sadly, as is evident in an e-mail from Mr. Wark reprinted in a credulous article about his story, Mr. Wark does not understand the basics of adjuvant chemotherapy, or, if he does, he is not relating it correctly:
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    Likes Ivy, kyuuei, Hard liked this post

  9. #289
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Such an awesome point @prplchknz

    He was still treating his chemo with modern medicine synthesized with natural medicine. A great display, but instead of promoting both within reason he condemns the former. It's good enough to promote to other people but not good enough to gamble his life on. Says volumes. And he's someone frequently featured as evidence of raw vegan lifestyles.

    I've been particularly interested in protein and fats and the rat studies. Low protein diets promoting liver and body failures in general.

    Japan is frequently showcased as vegetarian but it's highly inaccurate. Fish is a staple in the diet eaten daily or several times a week traditionally. A frequently forgotten detail in things like that documentary.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Such an awesome point @prplchknz

    He was still treating his chemo with modern medicine synthesized with natural medicine. A great display, but instead of promoting both within reason he condemns the former. It's good enough to promote to other people but not good enough to gamble his life on. Says volumes. And he's someone frequently featured as evidence of raw vegan lifestyles.

    I've been particularly interested in protein and fats and the rat studies. Low protein diets promoting liver and body failures in general.

    Japan is frequently showcased as vegetarian but it's highly inaccurate. Fish is a staple in the diet eaten daily or several times a week traditionally. A frequently forgotten detail in things like that documentary.
    yeah I hadn't heard of the guy. I don't like quacks, like i've said if nature could cure us of all diseases modern medicine wouldn't exist as the need wouldn't and even if it didn come about anyways, it would not be as big. The original article does mention that he did have surgery to have the tumor removed, he just opted out of the chemo treatments
    Perfectly robust chickens
    Run laps a lot
    Pee on the garden
    Leap over fences
    Cock is a word for rooster
    Hen is a type of chicken?
    Kit kats are good
    Nice chickens don't belong in the
    Zoo
    ~@magpie

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