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View Poll Results: Do you believe in the farmacy trend?

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  • I'm a hippy and I'm proud of it. Also, I have proof it works. No aluminum DO for me!

    3 7.69%
  • I'm kind of a hippy, but I was brought up that way, and/or I like moral aspects of the trend.

    4 10.26%
  • This is a thing? Who's Jenny McCarthy? I mean, I guess both are fine.

    4 10.26%
  • Science trumps turnips all day. Beets and apples won't keep you from having eczema hunny, sorry.

    24 61.54%
  • I don't really care at all. I can't afford either of them anyways.

    4 10.26%
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  1. #251
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    This thread has been an interesting read, although exhausting. Thanks @kyuuei for creating a space for this type of discussion. I don't have time to add a significant post atm, aside from a quick preface to say that I can appreciate multiple perspectives on the issues. After all, it was not traditional medicine that pointed me to celiac disease - I took a non-traditional route to find answers myself for symptoms that MD's told me for ~15 years were related to stress. (eta: my dx is medically verified btw). However, traditional medicine has also saved my life, and I find people in general are far too polarized in discussions on the topic. Both have virtues. Both have vices. We are at a unique time in history as knowledge continues to increase exponentially, faster than most individuals can keep track of.

    So, just a couple of quick adds:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    The book has a 4.5 rating with 179 reviews on Amazon. For someone like me, this amount of anecdotal evidence, is very convincing. You may have very different standards.
    It is prudent to be cautious of Amazon reviews; any reviews online actually. Anyone wishing to promote themeselves or products can buy reviews quite easily and this is an unfortunately common practice on today's internet. Check out fiverrr.com - see how many people will leave a glowing review for 5 bucks. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with this book, but something to be aware of in general that's not commonly known. I work in internet marketing and see it all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I will give you another example. For close to a year, my hands will suddenly turn grey later in the day, like I rubbed them in pencil lead. Immediately I become internally really cold, my veins become a greenish colour and I am exhausted and can't even stay sitting up. After many hours of sleep, my hands return to a normal colour and I warm up.
    Has your Dr suggested Raynaud's disease or Raynaud's phenomenon? It's what immediately came to mind reading your description.

    Raynaud's disease Symptoms - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic

    Obviously something was a catalyst for celiac disease starting in me.
    You have a genetic predisposition but yes, the something that triggers the "turning on" of that gene is a mystery.
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  2. #252
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've experienced Reynauds but this is something different. No blanched whiteness or pain. Just freezing cold and exhaustion...

  3. #253
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    @fidelia I re-read your original post. You didn't mention anything about getting your thyroid tested. Could you be hypothyroid?

    Symptoms of hypothyroid include:

    "severe fatigue, loss of energy
    weight gain, difficulty losing weight
    depression and depressed mood
    joint and muscle pain, headaches
    dry skin, brittle nails
    brittle hair, itchy scalp, hair loss
    irregular periods, PMS symptoms
    breast milk formation
    calcium metabolism difficulties
    difficulty tolerating cold and lower body temperature
    constipation
    sleeping more than average
    diminished sex drive
    puffiness in face and extremities
    hoarseness
    bruising/clotting problems
    elevated levels of LDL (the “bad” cholesterol) and heightened risk of heart disease
    allergies that suddenly appear or get worse
    persistent cold sores, boils, or breakouts
    tingling sensation in wrists and hands that mimics carpal tunnel syndrome
    memory loss, fuzzy thinking, difficulty following conversation or train of thought
    slowness or slurring of speech"
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  4. #254
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree, the symptoms match up and it goes with celiac disease and we also have family members with thyroid problems. I've been tested many many times and they insist I'm alright. I realize that the standard test doesn't cover everything and what is borderline here might be considered hypothyroid elsewhere, but I can't access other testing right now and the medical establishment doesn't feel like the results warrant further testing (I'vecseem several doctors over the years). I've taken some homeopathic stuff for it which is supposed to stimulate the thyroid.

  5. #255
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    I realize that the standard test doesn't cover everything and what is borderline here might be considered hypothyroid elsewhere, but I can't access other testing right now and the medical establishment doesn't feel like the results warrant further testing (I'vecseem several doctors over the years).
    The TSH "normal" range values are arbitrary and many people have normal test results but suffer from hypothyroid. I think you should seek help from an actual endocrinologist. There is also a self-test you can do that involves measuring your body temperature for 5 consecutive days.

    Tired? Self-Test your Thyroid

    In 2010, according to data dating back 40 years, Dr DS O’Reilly reported that there have been no published studies linking a TSH test result in the normal range to the relief of symptoms in a patient and a normally functioning thyroid(2). In other words, the TSH blood test can be normal but the patient may still have thyroid symptoms, leaving them with an undiagnosed and consequently untreated thyroid problem.

    In that same study, 50% of the individuals who took T4 thyroid medication and reported symptomatic relief then had a TSH test that was out of the normal range. In these cases, doctors routinely lower the medication to bring the TSH test back up to normal, at which point many patients re-develop their original hypothyroid symptoms. But with the TSH now back in “normal” range, doctors are reluctant to re- adjust the dose even though the symptoms are re-surfacing.
    This is my problem with how medicine is practiced today. Doctors ignore classic symptoms because of a test result without understanding how that test was designed and how the "normal" range is determined.

    If I were in your situation, I'd do the self-test and if the self-test came back positive, I'd probably self-medicate if the doctor refused to listen. Yes, there are vendors for porcine thyroid hormone online.

    Wow, someone actually wrote a book called "Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms When My Lab Tests are Normal?".

    This doctor seems to know what's going on:

    Thyroid Dysfunction
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

  6. #256
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    This is my problem with how medicine is practiced today. Doctors ignore classic symptoms because of a test result without understanding how that test was designed and how the "normal" range is determined.
    I agree with this. I'm certainly not advocating blindly following anyone with an MD after their name. My husband had to see a gastroenterologist a couple years ago for a problem he was having, and the guy was utterly useless. It seemed like he had a collection of flow charts leading to various diagnoses/treatments, and if someone's situation didn't fit his flow charts he would just slap an IBS label on them and call it a day. It is certainly possible to get through medical school without learning any critical thinking or problem attack strategies. And somebody has to graduate last in the class. On top of that, some doctors do seem to have a God complex and are threatened by their patients questioning their authority. I had an ER doc tell me I couldn't possibly have a kidney infection, despite the fact that I've had several of them and I know what they feel like, because I cried when he whacked my back too high up to be where my kidneys are. He accused me of drug-seeking although I told him I would forego the painkillers if he would just treat the infection with antibiotics. If I catch a whiff of that attitude and I'm not at the mercy of whatever doc is on shift at the ER, I'm out of there. I need to be a partner in my own healthcare.

    But at the same time I do have tremendous respect for many doctors who are capable of collaborating with patients who want to be a partner in their medical care, and aren't just cranking patients through the Doctorin' Logarithm. My primary healthcare provider is actually a Nurse Practitioner and I love him more than any doctor I've ever had because he is delighted to have a patient who wants to participate, not just take walking orders, and he's great at using logic alongside his training to hammer out answers and solutions. And I have very little respect, if any, for alt-med scheisters.
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  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    As someone who shops at whole foods, it doesn't make it less froofy. It's expensive stuff. They have whole contests where families of 3-4 try very hard to spend only 125$ a week for meals. $130 is what I spent a month for a family of 4 with the occasional 2 kids that don't eat much at all. We have 9 people living on $450 a month right now. It just doesn't happen at whole foods. It's not possible. $125 a week for one person? You can eat whatever you want. A month? You'll struggle to eat rice, beans, vegetables, and the occasional sliver of meat at whole foods. People had to try VERY hard and order things like half a cabbage to make those budgets work.

    I'm not dissing whole foods, I like them a lot despite their issues they've been called out on at times. They're certainly better than walmart. But that doesn't really mean they're practical for everyone. So, yeah, I consider them froofy. I consider Trader Joe's froofy too despite it being vastly cheaper. Sorry if you don't like it, it isn't meant to be insulting.. just a different class.



    Oh don't get me started on kale and how cheap it used to be until it got popular and now it's super expensive. That's how food fashion goes. Something isn't so pricey, then it gets picked for being sexy, and the price goes up. I used to buy kale for 88 cents a bunch, and I know inflation has a liiiittle bit to do with it, but I'm nervous seeing whole foods post "collard greens are the new kale!" on their shopping bags because I still buy those and cook them.

    Look, not everyone eats dark leafy greens. Especially when they're younger. I hated them. Kale and collard greens can cause GI upset, and they're bitter flavors raw to boot. I hated meat too... but I hated spinach, and kale, and anything that wasn't broccoli and green. And I was the most open of my family. My parents ate vegetables, two kinds, with every meal. But I'm sure the shape of broccoli and how much cheese was on it had 90% of my sway. More and more research is showing to offer kids new foods, but not to punish them if they don't eat them.. that trying new foods ought to stay positive. So, like most kids, I got nutrients from other sources until I turned 14, hit puberty, and said, "Omg is this what spinach tastes like?! Why did I think this was gross?!" It's pretty common. You want nutrients for your kids, and you balance getting them the best stuff with getting them what they need that day.



    I meant on a community health level. A bigger more global approach. I'm clearly not an expert in non-american diets, I'm sticking with that for sure. But there's a reason WIC gives out milk.

    Not rich isn't the same as poor either. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your diet, your mom's diet, or whatever you guys are doing. I'm saying there's nothing wrong with people drinking milk either, even if you think it's not the number 1 best option.



    It is more expensive. Almond milk is a luxury thing. You're paying for fancy water.

    It would literally take the entire jug of almond milk to equate to the same nutrition in a single ounce of actual almonds eaten by themselves without all that process of turning it into milk. Almonds are super healthy for you, and cheap too. Almond milk is not. And frequently the brands add things like vitamin/nutrient blends to the milk so that they can make those claims of "More protein than milk! More vitamins than milk!" Much of the argument is that milk has to be doctored up and enriched or fortified or whatever people complain about. Almond milk is no different. Sure you get it fresh, but like I said you pay for that freshness and it still won't have the same effects as plain old almonds. It's cheaper to buy milk, drink it, and buy almonds and eat those too than it is to drink a single cup of almond milk.

    For the price, you're paying for something just as processed. I could buy a multivitamin and get more bang for my buck than almond milk nutrient wise.

    I'm not invalidating almond milk, I use it sometimes--but taste is mostly why, not nutrient content at all. And usually only on clearance racks and manager specials because you literally get half the amount of milk for $1 more. When you're on a budget, dollars count all the way. Lactaid is about the same price per half gallon, sure, but it also has much of the nutrients retained from milk and isn't just a bunch of sexy water with a few almonds sprinkled in.

    I like almond milk and I think it's a great item especially when hand made instead of bought at the store. Depending on what you need in your diet, there's nothing wrong with it at all. The industry drove the price up something ridiculous because it's sexy, but that's not almond milk's fault. It could theoretically be as cheap as regular milk for the same amount.

    But for right now? In the current state of things? I'm saying that milk is much more cost effective, nutrient dense, and readily available. It may not be the number 1 coolest sexy thing out there ever, but it doesn't need to be for many people. It's understandable, and even acceptable dare I say it, that people use milk as a health promotion item in their diets.

    You can keep arguing with me about how gross you find milk, or whatever, but I'm not disagreeing with you--there's nothing to disagree about. You like almond milk sooooo much. That's cool. I don't really, I prefer regular milk. If you're not cool with that, arguing with me about how much you dislike it and your mom is lactose intolerant isn't really going to change my mind. On top of that, most of America's health promotion agencies (like food stamps, and wic, and recent dietary guidelines) sort of agree too. So, yeah, on a community health and more global approach, I'm not alone in my thoughts that milk is fine. I'm sure you don't agree with half those programs and the way they're run.. but for someone that depended on those programs growing up, I was super lucky and happy to get what I got from them, and I'm definitely glad they allowed me to drink milk if my parents chose it for me instead of just saying, "collard greens are better, so no more milk for you." and allowed my parents and myself some autonomy over my decision making in my health.

    we have seriously different philosophies on food and diet. And that's cool with me honestly. But you're arguing with someone who isn't really here to talk about milk in a thread that isn't really meant to discuss milk. and you're really derailing the thread.

    My aim is to complain about foodies and hippies and their 'farmacy' mentalities and such. Because those guys believe it or not aren't perfect enlightened people we all should model after. They have valid good points, do good things, but they also do a lot of back peddling and regressing of aspects that I don't like. The point of the thread is to highlight those things. I understand food and weight and nutrition is a very charged subject for you... but if you don't want to help identify things that don't make sense from hippies, then please write like, literally, anywhere else about the stuff you hate. And I'd even be willing to discuss the topic further with you elsewhere, particularly after my exams this week, but for now I'd really like to get back on topic.
    I agree that people may drink milk if they like, but I disagree that milk is so nutrient dense and nut and soy milks are not. For your information, most nut, seed and soy milk is as fortified as breakfast cereal, it's practically like taking a multi vitamin without having to buy multis, minus the lactose, saturated fat, and antibiotics or hormones (and if you're ethical, also minus cruelty).....nah I don't think your arguments about alternative sources of calcium are that well informed, because really all milk provides is calcium and fat, because vitamin D has to be added to milk, it's not occuring naturally. Alternative milks are not fancy water. Many are actually fortified with omega 3 as well as calcium, vitamin D and other nutrients.

    You say everyone doesn't eat green vegetables, but eh why the hell not? Everyone doesn't drink milk either. Almonds, black strap molasses, orange juice, broccoli. ...all sources of calcium that aren't kale or collard greens.

    I just won't stand here and tolerate willful ignorance. That's all. WIC is a government program and pushes milk for cultural reasons. Did you know you can do milk free wic??? (The official alternative is soy milk and tofu; adults are more likely to drink nut and seed milks because they eat enough soy elsewhere in the diet.) This is the 21st century. You can even order non dairy pizzas from Papa Johns and Shakeys, and eat cheese less burritos at Taco Bell.

    I prefer hemp milk, btw.

  8. #258
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've experienced Reynauds but this is something different. No blanched whiteness or pain. Just freezing cold and exhaustion...
    Raynaud's can be diagnosed as a primary condition and as a secondary condition. As a primary condition, one has the classic symptoms with no (known) underlying health issues. As a secondary condition, however, Raynaud's can accompany another illness, such as fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis and Sjogren's syndrome. An attack can last for a few minutes or can go on for hours, does not necessarily have the same color changes / pain and if you had another primary condition such as those mentioned, one could find an attack very exhausting. And, you will find Dr's who do say that stress can be a trigger so think on the times that you experience symptoms, are they at pressure-filled moments? Or do they happen when you are relaxing? What triggers it and how often? (Maybe take the answers with you to the Dr next time you go?)

    Anyway, just wanted to share that, there could be a connection worth exploring.

    I would say, it took me several years of being gluten-free to be (mostly) free of a satellite of other symptoms, including cold feet and hands, seemingly never-ending fatigue, rashes, headaches, facial flushes and other vague things that no one could ever really help me with. So, YMMV on this too.
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
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  9. #259
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Something that particularly grinds my gears:

    Chiropractic � Science-Based Medicine

    When chiropractors claim to cure anything. To me, they're glorified physical therapists, and I've met 2 quack ones for every 1 good one. We need good, well trained physical therapists. Don't get me wrong, I used one as a kid--I don't know if I would have made it through elementary school without physical therapy on my neck.. it just constantly cramped up and I couldn't move and was constantly in pain. Even as an adult I easily get neck issues and sleep on it wrong. If I didn't get help on a weekly basis I would have been a shit student. And my mother currently uses one for her broken arm therapy. She loves her new one, but she had to go through two quack ones in the area to find him. The first one even set her BACK a couple weeks with his stupidity. I currently have a GREAT physical therapist (I'm so sorry lady that doesn't read this) at the VA and it was actually HER and her passion for body mechanics that started my diagnosis of my hips. She had seen the condition in, particularly female, soldiers and it isn't a really common one outside of physically intense jobs like that from an early age. Now I have a real name to put to my hips, and she was the one that stopped me from getting surgery. I'm forever in her debt. (She's not a chiropractor though, so I don't feel bad at all for writing any of this.)

    Both those practitioners knew what they were. They manipulate the body to help the muscles help themselves. They don't try to pretend that the subjective beliefs that started the practice still apply today--even if the results that came from those beliefs were good.

    But some do. So, then you've got Chiropractors that claim it'll cure your asthma. If you go in for a check up, you're for sure out of alignment. That's what they call it. No x-ray needed, doesn't matter if your x-rays show you're fine actually. You can have a slight misalignment in your sciencificsoundingbone muscle. And it's pinching a nerve, for sure. That's why you have allergies. Never you mind histamine. That's a symptom of the MAIN problem.

    Applied Kinesiology - Humble Wellness

    Summary: Oh look, we use applied kinesiology (which is super cool sounding right?) because there's lots of reasons for back pain and doctors know this. Most doctors, though, don't have a magic testing tool like us. We're super lucky to be able to bring this technology to you to determine if your diet, posture, or that fast twisting motion you do when you lift heavy things completely with your back muscles are the reasons your back is fucked up.

    It sounds all super sexy to people. And it should. Chiropractors pay a looot ton of money to get into their career. They ought to know what they're talking about. They literally study the mechanics and physics of the body. They ought to have elementary physics down pact, A&P thoroughly memorized, and common medical conditions thoroughly researched so that they can apply all of that knowledge to people and say, "Oh, hey buddy, turns out you have back pain because you're lifting like a jerk. But also, you might have a hernia, so I'd ask your doc about that bro."

    Applied Kinesiology

    The basis of applied kinesiology is that any problem with an organ is accompanied by weakness in a corresponding muscle. For instance, a weak muscle in the chest might indicate liver disease, while weakness of the lower back or leg muscles may be the result of lung problems. Practitioners claim that by finding the weak muscle they can identify the underlying illness and make decisions about treatment. They believe that strengthening of the weak muscles shows that the internal organs have strengthened as well.
    Until you read it in that context. Then it starts sounding shady real quick.

    A few researchers have investigated kinesiology muscle-testing procedures in controlled clinical studies. The results showed that applied kinesiology was not an accurate diagnostic tool, and that muscle response was not any more useful than random guessing. In fact, one study found that assessments by experienced applied kinesiologists of nutrient status for the same patients varied widely. In addition, when muscle testing was compared to laboratory testing for the nutrients in question, muscle testing did not correlate to laboratory results that showed adequate or deficient nutrients.
    Basically, no one is even bothering to research this thing because it sounds quacked before you even begin, and those that do are just trying to show those using it that they're better off just guessing.

    This fad should have died when 60s fashion did. But it's shit like this that turn people away from doctors and medicine and even natural medicine. You get a quack doctor, and you want to say eff it to everything they're about. Chiropractors are one of those.. in-betweeny guys.

    Chiropractor vs Doctor - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

    This site breaks down some major differences.. but a lot of people still believe Chiropractors are pretty much doctors. They really present themselves that way--and they have the title of it technically. (Nurse practitioners have a REALLY bad habit of that too--saying I'm Doctor X, but leaving out that they're only an NP which is misleading for the patient.) But a lot of quacks go into it for the money, and they sure know how to make money off of people.. with cool ideas like, "Hey, your whole family could get readjustments. Just sign a year long contract with us, and for $200 a month, your whole family can come in anytime you want!" What a steal! "Oh, and if it turns out you CAN'T come all that month.. you still have to pay for that month. And you have to pay the next month. This is a contract--you have to pay the whole year no matter what. I mean, we care about your health, but a deal's a deal, right?" If no one shows up? That dude just got paid $200 for nothing. And a year later of faithful going? That family still has allergies, and back pain, and nothing gets FIXED. The family gets frustrated, says that shit doesn't work, and swears off physical therapy.. and then, two years later, they're more likely to not attend physical therapy for things they really need, and more likely to say yes to surgeries vs conservative efforts.

    Particularly Mexicans and low income people are preyed on here in Houston with this tactic, and I've seen more than one family go through this exact scenario.
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  10. #260
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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