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View Poll Results: Do you believe in the farmacy trend?

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  • I'm a hippy and I'm proud of it. Also, I have proof it works. No aluminum DO for me!

    3 7.69%
  • I'm kind of a hippy, but I was brought up that way, and/or I like moral aspects of the trend.

    4 10.26%
  • This is a thing? Who's Jenny McCarthy? I mean, I guess both are fine.

    4 10.26%
  • Science trumps turnips all day. Beets and apples won't keep you from having eczema hunny, sorry.

    24 61.54%
  • I don't really care at all. I can't afford either of them anyways.

    4 10.26%
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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I think there is a strong possibility though that most Westerners are more likely to be biased towards milk than away from it. In the end, my point stands that it seems unnecessary and possibly even harmful to promote dairy the way it has been aggressively promoted in the United States, and this has a lot to do with marketing more than medicine. A lot of Western people seem highly unaware of how marketing of food, beverages and yes pharmaceutical products, is swaying people towards a commercial bias rather than a science-based one. That is why I don't think it's wise at all to discount this research that is coming up, because if I weren't here and the much more academic Tellenbach weren't here, you would all be congratulating and agreeing with each other about "those damn hippies. "
    Your point does not stand, several of us have contested it and you have just rejected it by trying to paint explanations as opinion, when they are factual statements on what it actually is. It's distortion and misrepresentation. Also, the suggestion that commertial induststry is trying to sway the public away from a science based approach is not correct, and the suggestion of it is completely ironic. Many of the groups (though not all), in particular the loud ones that garner attention are themselves anti-science (in the sense that they don't understand what they're pushing, and they misrepresent it).

    Research is not being dicounted, it's simply not being weighted with heavy consideration until strong enough evidence appears that garners a need for evaluation and change.
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  2. #242
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I am not talking about individuals liking dairy but rather the aggressive celebrity endorsement surrounding dairy in the West, and the invention of substances like Lactaise, creating a false reality where dairy is fabulous for everyone. Even you seem to believe people get osteoporosis without milk, but there have actually been studies linking dairy consumption to INCREASED osteoporosis, not the other way around. Caucasian women have a similar risk for osteoporosis to Asian women, apart from African Americans and Hispanic population, despite milk consumption being normative in most Caucasian societies.
    I'm saying people get osteoporosis without adequate types and amounts of calcium. And milk, cheese (made out of milk), and yogurt (also made out of milk) are all winners in that category. For some reason, even high vegetable diets seem frequently deficient in calcium and vitamin D. Vegetables have calcium.. Milk contains calcium, vitamin D due to law, complete protein, fat, and carbs. It's cheap, and readily available, and necessary for many people that are living on a poor man's diet whether you live in a foodie mecca or in a food desert in Detroit.

    Weight bearing exercise is also omitted from many women in general, which tends to make them prone to osteoporosis. Genetics play a role as well. So calcium isn't really the only factor--but then people don't tend to drink milk solely for its calcium properties. Milk is in nearly all dairy products unless you pay 2-5x the amount for froofy whole foods stuff. For lactose intolerant people, for like $2 more you can buy lactase-treated milk and it's still far cheaper overall. So, yeah, it was widely advertised.. because it's the cheapest and most agreeable thing to advertise. I'm sure the dairy industry was thrilled and had lots of says, but advertising isn't invalidating to the product. Kids aren't going to start magically liking collard greens, and neither are many adults. Not all adults even like milk and it's super popular. When you're thinking bigger terms and globally, you have to make something that's great for all types of people. Milk, cheese, and yogurt get along with populations far easier than collard greens and bok choy--and milk has added benefits of complete macronutrients as well, and being easier to access and cheaper. I completely get why it's popular. And it tastes good and can be cooked with and used a hundred ways. THere's really only so many ways you can dress up collard greens though. There's not much versatility there.

    I've seen the studies about dairy increasing it, but I also doubt that those studies say the recommended amounts are what cause the increase vs an overload consistently in the diet.

    While I respect the general tone of your post, I also have to disagree with you that acne is principally a hygeine issue. ...while proper hygeine helps, both high sugar diets and dairy consumption have been linked to chronic acne. Not in all people, which is why the evidence is inconclusive, but removing dairy has worked for a significant number of people.
    Diet is frequently suggested.. no study has said, "Yes, this food type causes this for sure." Nothing's for sure in science.. but avoiding nearly all sugar and dairy consumption to cure maybe 2 more of the blackheads you have? Unless you're having allergic reactions, chances are that intervention is only going to be effective for a very select group of people. No harm in trying, sure, but I don't see huge benefits in comparison to using a bit of zinc or sulfur on my face since I have to do that whether I eat those things or not. No sugar didn't give me results. No dairy didn't change anything. And I'm really not alone in that.

    Same with mucus. I have met people who are congested nearly 24/7...instead of taking excessive amounts of Claritin, it might do them good to at least try to eliminate dairy.
    If their allergies are to pollen, or a certain tree common to the area, or to everything, or if they're dehydrated (many Americans tend to be), it doesn't matter if you drink milk or not, that factor isn't going to make congestion disappear. cutting out milk doesn't stop seasonal allergies or other conditions. It might exacerbate them, sure, but if you're stuck taking medicine either way for the condition I don't see the huge difference in drinking milk then. If I feel super congested that day, I don't drink milk typically, but I also don't need allergy pills as often as I once did. When I needed allergy pills I needed them whether milk was adding icing on the cake or not. The whole damn cake's still there even if I scrape that icing off.
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  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Your point does not stand, several of us have contested it and you have just rejected it by trying to paint explanations as opinion, when they are factual statements on what it actually is. It's distortion and misrepresentation. Also, the suggestion that commertial induststry is trying to sway the public away from a science based approach is not correct, and the suggestion of it is completely ironic. Many of the groups (though not all), in particular the loud ones that garner attention are themselves anti-science (in the sense that they don't understand what they're pushing, and they misrepresent it).

    Research is not being dicounted, it's simply not being weighted with heavy consideration until strong enough evidence appears that garners a need for evaluation and change.
    My point completely stands there are scientists doing this research. I am starting to think you are delusional about your own authority versus other scientists and doctors. That is not a problem when you speak of your own health, but it's a serious problem when you are judging me and Tellenbach. You are entitled to your opinions and your own ethics, but like the problematic Fe Dom you try to control others with your ethics.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 11-10-2014 at 02:44 AM. Reason: removed information from PM

  4. #244
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Your point does not stand, several of us have contested it and you have just rejected it by trying to paint explanations as opinion, when they are factual statements on what it actually is. It's distortion and misrepresentation. Also, the suggestion that commertial induststry is trying to sway the public away from a science based approach is not correct, and the suggestion of it is completely ironic. Many of the groups (though not all), in particular the loud ones that garner attention are themselves anti-science (in the sense that they don't understand what they're pushing, and they misrepresent it).
    I disagree with the highlighted. Just look at most advertising. It doesn't extol the benefits of a product using evidence and reasoning, it relies on influencing people's emotions through dramatized situations that often have little to do with the purpose and function of the product itself. A science-based approach would cut through all of this.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I don't know much about osteoporosis, but a quick search reveals that Vitamin K2 might be important, very important:

    Effects of vitamin K2 on osteoporosis.



    Also:

    Treatment with vitamin D3 and/or vitamin K2 for postmenopausal osteoporosis.
    I want to sincerely thank you for all of your documented research on alternative natural health.
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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I disagree with the highlighted. Just look at most advertising. It doesn't extol the benefits of a product using evidence and reasoning, it relies on influencing people's emotions through dramatized situations that often have little to do with the purpose and function of the product itself. A science-based approach would cut through all of this.
    Ok I see what you're saying. Though I don't so much see it as trying dissuade people from a science based approach as industry using market tools to sell something (and everything does that). Though I suppose if you look at it from that angle it's passively trying to dissuade the public by trying to get individuals used to using emotional reasoning more often (which sadly works too often, in particular if something is unfamiliar; which is why I do see some irony in it as I explained above for the tools the other sides try to use).
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  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm saying people get osteoporosis without adequate types and amounts of calcium. And milk, cheese (made out of milk), and yogurt (also made out of milk) are all winners in that category. For some reason, even high vegetable diets seem frequently deficient in calcium and vitamin D. Vegetables have calcium.. Milk contains calcium, vitamin D due to law, complete protein, fat, and carbs. It's cheap, and readily available, and necessary for many people that are living on a poor man's diet whether you live in a foodie mecca or in a food desert in Detroit.

    Weight bearing exercise is also omitted from many women in general, which tends to make them prone to osteoporosis. Genetics play a role as well. So calcium isn't really the only factor--but then people don't tend to drink milk solely for its calcium properties. Milk is in nearly all dairy products unless you pay 2-5x the amount for froofy whole foods stuff. For lactose intolerant people, for like $2 more you can buy lactase-treated milk and it's still far cheaper overall. So, yeah, it was widely advertised.. because it's the cheapest and most agreeable thing to advertise. I'm sure the dairy industry was thrilled and had lots of says, but advertising isn't invalidating to the product. Kids aren't going to start magically liking collard greens, and neither are many adults. Not all adults even like milk and it's super popular. When you're thinking bigger terms and globally, you have to make something that's great for all types of people. Milk, cheese, and yogurt get along with populations far easier than collard greens and bok choy--and milk has added benefits of complete macronutrients as well, and being easier to access and cheaper. I completely get why it's popular. And it tastes good and can be cooked with and used a hundred ways. THere's really only so many ways you can dress up collard greens though. There's not much versatility there.

    I've seen the studies about dairy increasing it, but I also doubt that those studies say the recommended amounts are what cause the increase vs an overload consistently in the diet.



    Diet is frequently suggested.. no study has said, "Yes, this food type causes this for sure." Nothing's for sure in science.. but avoiding nearly all sugar and dairy consumption to cure maybe 2 more of the blackheads you have? Unless you're having allergic reactions, chances are that intervention is only going to be effective for a very select group of people. No harm in trying, sure, but I don't see huge benefits in comparison to using a bit of zinc or sulfur on my face since I have to do that whether I eat those things or not. No sugar didn't give me results. No dairy didn't change anything. And I'm really not alone in that.



    If their allergies are to pollen, or a certain tree common to the area, or to everything, or if they're dehydrated (many Americans tend to be), it doesn't matter if you drink milk or not, that factor isn't going to make congestion disappear. cutting out milk doesn't stop seasonal allergies or other conditions. It might exacerbate them, sure, but if you're stuck taking medicine either way for the condition I don't see the huge difference in drinking milk then. If I feel super congested that day, I don't drink milk typically, but I also don't need allergy pills as often as I once did. When I needed allergy pills I needed them whether milk was adding icing on the cake or not. The whole damn cake's still there even if I scrape that icing off.
    Honestly I am not even sure what to do with this post. Froofy whole foods? And yes plenty of adults and children like collard greens and kale. Kale is actually an extremely popular food nationally, and collard greens are a traditional food in the South. I hated meat as a child. HATED IT. I fed hamburger to the dog and thought chicken was full of red veiny worms. There's no established reason that children cannot eat green vegetables (I love broccoli) or why milk is suddenly a go to food for all, other than your Si cultural bias.

    My mom would even laugh at this post and she lives in West Virginia, is lactose intolerant, is extremely health concious, and not rich. Sometimes I wonder if you play up the Texas thing or if you're really serious, because if you actually think GLOBALLY most people don't even consume milk. So by globally I presume you mean "middle America."

    Almonds are a good natural source of calcium. Drink almond milk, it's soy free, and it’s not more expensive than drinking the Lactaise stuff. You are just making excuses for the dairy industry and I guess that is not anywhere near as terrible as making excuses for the oil industry, because they're just farmers.

  8. #248
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Honestly I am not even sure what to do with this post. Froofy whole foods?
    As someone who shops at whole foods, it doesn't make it less froofy. It's expensive stuff. They have whole contests where families of 3-4 try very hard to spend only 125$ a week for meals. $130 is what I spent a month for a family of 4 with the occasional 2 kids that don't eat much at all. We have 9 people living on $450 a month right now. It just doesn't happen at whole foods. It's not possible. $125 a week for one person? You can eat whatever you want. A month? You'll struggle to eat rice, beans, vegetables, and the occasional sliver of meat at whole foods. People had to try VERY hard and order things like half a cabbage to make those budgets work.

    I'm not dissing whole foods, I like them a lot despite their issues they've been called out on at times. They're certainly better than walmart. But that doesn't really mean they're practical for everyone. So, yeah, I consider them froofy. I consider Trader Joe's froofy too despite it being vastly cheaper. Sorry if you don't like it, it isn't meant to be insulting.. just a different class.

    And yes plenty of adults and children like collard greens and kale. Kale is actually an extremely popular food nationally, and collard greens are a traditional food in the South. I hated meat as a child. HATED IT. I fed hamburger to the dog and thought chicken was full of red veiny worms. There's no established reason that children cannot eat green vegetables (I love broccoli) or why milk is suddenly a go to food for all, other than your Si cultural bias.
    Oh don't get me started on kale and how cheap it used to be until it got popular and now it's super expensive. That's how food fashion goes. Something isn't so pricey, then it gets picked for being sexy, and the price goes up. I used to buy kale for 88 cents a bunch, and I know inflation has a liiiittle bit to do with it, but I'm nervous seeing whole foods post "collard greens are the new kale!" on their shopping bags because I still buy those and cook them.

    Look, not everyone eats dark leafy greens. Especially when they're younger. I hated them. Kale and collard greens can cause GI upset, and they're bitter flavors raw to boot. I hated meat too... but I hated spinach, and kale, and anything that wasn't broccoli and green. And I was the most open of my family. My parents ate vegetables, two kinds, with every meal. But I'm sure the shape of broccoli and how much cheese was on it had 90% of my sway. More and more research is showing to offer kids new foods, but not to punish them if they don't eat them.. that trying new foods ought to stay positive. So, like most kids, I got nutrients from other sources until I turned 14, hit puberty, and said, "Omg is this what spinach tastes like?! Why did I think this was gross?!" It's pretty common. You want nutrients for your kids, and you balance getting them the best stuff with getting them what they need that day.

    My mom would even laugh at this post and she lives in West Virginia, is lactose intolerant, is extremely health concious, and not rich. Sometimes I wonder if you play up the Texas thing or if you're really serious, because if you actually think GLOBALLY most people don't even consume milk. So by globally I presume you mean "middle America."
    I meant on a community health level. A bigger more global approach. I'm clearly not an expert in non-american diets, I'm sticking with that for sure. But there's a reason WIC gives out milk.

    Not rich isn't the same as poor either. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your diet, your mom's diet, or whatever you guys are doing. I'm saying there's nothing wrong with people drinking milk either, even if you think it's not the number 1 best option.

    Almonds are a good natural source of calcium. Drink almond milk, it's soy free, and it’s not more expensive than drinking the Lactaise stuff. You are just making excuses for the dairy industry and I guess that is not anywhere near as terrible as making excuses for the oil industry, because they're just farmers.
    It is more expensive. Almond milk is a luxury thing. You're paying for fancy water.

    It would literally take the entire jug of almond milk to equate to the same nutrition in a single ounce of actual almonds eaten by themselves without all that process of turning it into milk. Almonds are super healthy for you, and cheap too. Almond milk is not. And frequently the brands add things like vitamin/nutrient blends to the milk so that they can make those claims of "More protein than milk! More vitamins than milk!" Much of the argument is that milk has to be doctored up and enriched or fortified or whatever people complain about. Almond milk is no different. Sure you get it fresh, but like I said you pay for that freshness and it still won't have the same effects as plain old almonds. It's cheaper to buy milk, drink it, and buy almonds and eat those too than it is to drink a single cup of almond milk.

    For the price, you're paying for something just as processed. I could buy a multivitamin and get more bang for my buck than almond milk nutrient wise.

    I'm not invalidating almond milk, I use it sometimes--but taste is mostly why, not nutrient content at all. And usually only on clearance racks and manager specials because you literally get half the amount of milk for $1 more. When you're on a budget, dollars count all the way. Lactaid is about the same price per half gallon, sure, but it also has much of the nutrients retained from milk and isn't just a bunch of sexy water with a few almonds sprinkled in.

    I like almond milk and I think it's a great item especially when hand made instead of bought at the store. Depending on what you need in your diet, there's nothing wrong with it at all. The industry drove the price up something ridiculous because it's sexy, but that's not almond milk's fault. It could theoretically be as cheap as regular milk for the same amount.

    But for right now? In the current state of things? I'm saying that milk is much more cost effective, nutrient dense, and readily available. It may not be the number 1 coolest sexy thing out there ever, but it doesn't need to be for many people. It's understandable, and even acceptable dare I say it, that people use milk as a health promotion item in their diets.

    You can keep arguing with me about how gross you find milk, or whatever, but I'm not disagreeing with you--there's nothing to disagree about. You like almond milk sooooo much. That's cool. I don't really, I prefer regular milk. If you're not cool with that, arguing with me about how much you dislike it and your mom is lactose intolerant isn't really going to change my mind. On top of that, most of America's health promotion agencies (like food stamps, and wic, and recent dietary guidelines) sort of agree too. So, yeah, on a community health and more global approach, I'm not alone in my thoughts that milk is fine. I'm sure you don't agree with half those programs and the way they're run.. but for someone that depended on those programs growing up, I was super lucky and happy to get what I got from them, and I'm definitely glad they allowed me to drink milk if my parents chose it for me instead of just saying, "collard greens are better, so no more milk for you." and allowed my parents and myself some autonomy over my decision making in my health.

    we have seriously different philosophies on food and diet. And that's cool with me honestly. But you're arguing with someone who isn't really here to talk about milk in a thread that isn't really meant to discuss milk. and you're really derailing the thread.

    My aim is to complain about foodies and hippies and their 'farmacy' mentalities and such. Because those guys believe it or not aren't perfect enlightened people we all should model after. They have valid good points, do good things, but they also do a lot of back peddling and regressing of aspects that I don't like. The point of the thread is to highlight those things. I understand food and weight and nutrition is a very charged subject for you... but if you don't want to help identify things that don't make sense from hippies, then please write like, literally, anywhere else about the stuff you hate. And I'd even be willing to discuss the topic further with you elsewhere, particularly after my exams this week, but for now I'd really like to get back on topic.
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  9. #249
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Like milk drink milk don't like milk don't drink milk. why is this so complicated?? if you aren't lactose intolerant then milk is fine for you. I don't like milk cuz they taste smell and texture and makes me want to vomit. But other people like milk but I don't tell them not to drink it using faulty studies. Though I love cheese and yogurt
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  10. #250
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini
    I want to sincerely thank you for all of your documented research on alternative natural health.
    You are most welcome. I have no opinion on milk but I would like to point out that NPR recently did a story about the marketing of cheese and the obesity epidemic. Evidently, American consumption of cheese skyrocketed after the dairy industry started marketing it.

    What you are witnessing in this thread and among establishment sources in general is a closed-mindedness about non-standard approaches to healing. If you investigate alternative healing treatments, you'll come across plenty of screw-jobs and outright dishonest, smear campaigns against alternative healing practicioners. I'm reading about the persecution of Dr. Burzynski (a Texas cancer doctor) right now. The lies published about Burzynski by the JAMA are documented and refuted by a journalist in "The Burzynski Breakthrough". I might have to blog about it because the lies and injustice are so unbelievable.

    What people don't realize is that a few people at the top can write a smear piece on an alternative treatment and the entire industry just accepts it as truth. The New England Journal of Medicine has 1 guy deciding what gets published and he decided not to publish Linus Pauling's objections to the clinical trials of the Mayo Clinic. It's been almost 30 years since the second clinical trial of Vitamin C in treating cancer; the screw-ups by Mayo have been recognized by others. I'm still waiting for Mayo or some other establishment source to do a proper trial of intravenous Vitamin C.

    Also, I learned that the guy who screwed up both clinical trials of Vitamin C (Dr. Moertel) was also responsible for testing laetrile. Now I have to read up on laetrile and figure out if they screwed up on that trial as well.
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