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View Poll Results: Do you believe in the farmacy trend?

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  • I'm a hippy and I'm proud of it. Also, I have proof it works. No aluminum DO for me!

    3 7.69%
  • I'm kind of a hippy, but I was brought up that way, and/or I like moral aspects of the trend.

    4 10.26%
  • This is a thing? Who's Jenny McCarthy? I mean, I guess both are fine.

    4 10.26%
  • Science trumps turnips all day. Beets and apples won't keep you from having eczema hunny, sorry.

    24 61.54%
  • I don't really care at all. I can't afford either of them anyways.

    4 10.26%
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Thread: Nature VS Modern Medicine and weeding out what truly works.

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Yes, your state is vacuous. It's a blanket generalization trying to demonize modern medicine for being "overused". You said nothing to offer valid support of it. If things are over used, we can measure it and are aware of this possibly occurring. Saying "taxing on your liver" is one of the most ridiculous and overused statements in "natural" health communities which ultimately means nothing. There is no "pill dependency", it's simply a matter of people at large preferring that method over something requiring further effort (and stand alone pills will not always solve the problem, there needs to be additional work such as diet/exersize/environment changes.

    And yes individuals not possessing a gene is the same thing regardless of the outcome. You simply don't want it to be. Can you take something to improve quality of life? Then do so. It will cause the individual NO HARM, at ALL to take it.




    Well, I don't give a shit. As I said to small.wonder, if I see something wrong in this realm and tauting falsehoods, I am going to speak up about it and I am not going to back down (unless the individual is truly unreasonable and can not be reached). You can, but I won't. My argument is not based of opinion. Your sources are minimally value/weight at best (I already pointed that out). There needs to be a much larger group consensus about it in order for it to be taken seriously. If it comes to pass, the FDA or some other major announcement will go through the medical community that will gain traction fast. This exact thing has happened with table salt a few times over the past few decades.
    Yeah you are definitely Je. Fe to be exact. You don't even acknowledge how much opinion is affecting your judgment here. The FDA isn't the be all and end all. Note how "large group consensus" is made in other countries, but still the U.S. FDA may or may not agree. There are multiple factors at play here, and no my statement is not vacuous, and I am not demonizing all Western medicine, just over abuse of pharmaceuticals. Who is generalizing now, son.

  2. #192
    Emperor/Dictator Array kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Did you read through the abstract? They used 1 gram/day. One gram isn't going to do anything. You need 10 plus grams. You'll find that many if not most Vitamin C studies to be seriously flawed in this respect; the doses used are far lower than anything that Linus Pauling and others used.
    Colds last like.. 2 days? 3 days? Why the hell would you even bother? I mean, sure, do whatever you can for a couple days.. I'm not taking 100x the amount my body needs of something because someone on the internet swears it works. Sorry, bro, NOTHING kills the cold virus except your own immune system, and for me that shit works whether I take cold meds or vitamin C. I try just try to make myself feel better and eliminate possible other causes before I accept having a cold truly. Not all the vitamin C in the world will kill your cold bug, so it seems crazy to me to take SO much of a substance that isn't really going to help your symptoms or actually help a cold duration. 1 1/2 days? Versus 2? Not worth it. I could use saline and get more relief. It's a preference thing only so far.

    I guess you wouldn't be interested in the large 1985 British Medical Research Council study (17,000 patients) that shows no effect on death rates from using hypertension medications.
    I'll bet you wouldn't be surprised to hear me say there's been a ton of research, new drugs, and such that have come out since that 1985 study. A lot's happened in 30 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    (which is a serious and dangerous worldwide health threat that is a question of when, not if. It trumps the issues in this thread topic by thousands of orders of magnitude).
    Such a good point. I see so much people selling the antibacterial angle from both ends of the spectrum.. only, luckily, hippies are 'natural' and misguided on what antibacterial stuff tends to do on their end, so they actually don't do a ton of harm in this category.

    It's incredibly dishonest. This is not the first individual I have encountered with this sort of value towards holistic medicine. Many seem to think credentials aren't that important, or aren't at all.
    This is entirely my point. It isn't exactly that I want to seem like a "I HEART DOCTORZ GAIZ" person but people just don't have an appreciation for that. If I told someone, "Hey, I've never done this surgery before, but I swear I watched a ton of videos on it and read on the internet and books and science. So.. sign here?" they'd tell me to fuck off. When it's something like that, suddenly credentials matter. Before that, it's just snobby posh people.

    Good to hear. I'm just disappointed that most of the drive to "improve" vaccines is cosmetic and done to satisfy people who refuse them; it's done for PR reasons mostly.
    Mostly because the one that make the most noise make it for all the wrong reasons. instead of well established issues being discussed, it's some dog-breath celebrity girl crying about, like, science is all cold and stuff. "My kid has autism and I don't understand why.. but these people said it MIGHT be to blame, and I really want something to blame so I know I didn't do bad things as a parent."

    Quote Originally Posted by Deceptive View Post
    That bothers me, too. However, has it occurred to you that this occurs because those with alternative views can never back their statements with decent evidence or research (and when they do, it tends to be misinterpreted or shady)?
    I told a girl on my facebook about this. I told her, "Hey, did you know this news source you're crediting information from is misleading? They're selling stuff left and right on the site that conveniently have stuff supporting the stuff they're selling, tons of ad tracker cookies on the site which is nearly comparable to porn sites, and literally say, "While we cannot draw any conclusions from this..." because They legally can't misrepresent someone's research? They can sake passive aggressive-esque twisty media things all they want after that charming disclaimer. Why don't you ever question why the skirt around those issues like lindmines?" ... Fell entirely on deaf ears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    The majority of the population not having a gene for digesting lactose is not at all the same as having diabetes, which is an illness. .... Kyuuei in fact noted the way many people just want to pop a pill instead of altering their diet or taking other factors like exercise, sleep, etc into consideration.
    If you believe at all in evolution it would make a lot of sense that some cultures are more suited to eat certain foods than others. It's a topic I've wanted to study in the future sometime, but until then, yes diabetes is an illness.. just like developing an allergy or skin condition is. But your body having lactase, mantaining it, and using it truly is a matter of philosophical opinion. Like I've stated on the site before, I tried an all natural, raw food diet.. I carefully researched food combinations, meal plans for adequate calories, etc. etc. And I got really ill. Very ill. I gained weight, held water, felt like garbage, and nothing I did was far outside the parameters of what raw foodies suggest. I followed their teachings. My body just was not made for that. Also, I found out I have an oral allergy to all raw fruit. AN ALLERGY TO FRUIT, can you imagine? What a nonsense allergy. Does that mean I should swear off all fruit and all their delicious health benefits just because I get slightly uncomfortable? Or, can I take an allergy pill and get all those benefits? Or just cook the food, and saw raw foodies are full of it and some people need to cook their food? That's a philosophy thing. They aren't wrong for being raw--but it WAS wrong for me.

    Similarly, just judging people's choice to use milk in their health and diet (for whatever reasons) is opinionated overall. It's a philosophical question more than a science-based one. There's studies abound that are fighting all the time.. whether x is good, or bad, or neutral, or good and bad.. Milk is one of those topics. Generally speaking, if you aren't intolerant, it can help your health, and if you are, there's plenty of alternatives for you. I don't see why diary is overly demonized when people abuse it and don't just eat the proper portions of it.. most things when over used are bad for you.

    The Japanese constantly deal with issues like constipation from high rice diets, which is just as uncomfortable as lactose intolerance episodes. Their diet is great, and healthy, but it's far from perfect. I study their diet and trends a lot more than the average American would, I've always had an interest in the country, and I believe Americans would benefit greatly from the principles. But leaping to the conclusion that low dairy makes for a better diet is negating the entirety of the benefits of their diet which is regardless of dairy existing in it or not.
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  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yeah you are definitely Je.
    Preaching to the choir there.
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  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Can't potassium chloride do that, too? My salt substitute has a warning label. I use as little as possible.
    Yup yup. Not the best in high doses that's for sure. Potassium has a very specific index for the body, and deviating from it either way is bad for you. Luckily, your body is naturally really great at regulating it generally.

    I use the Mrs. Dash things, and I don't need to watch my salt technically (right now), I just do because I yell at my parents to do it and I like leading by example. Several flavors to choose from and I actually enjoy them better than the salt. The only thing I still like salt in is soups and dipping hard boiled eggs in salt/pepper mixtures.
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  5. #195
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    About dairy- it seems to be like eggs, in that research is ambivalent and the tide changes back and forth over time. There doesn't seem to be any consensus about it either way. There's some evidence that it can be harmful in excess, and some evidence that it can be helpful in moderation.

    Personally, eating dairy products in moderation has been a part of my lifestyle change, which has centered around chilling the fuck out about food and ridding myself of my old "good" food/"bad" food mindset in favor of a widely varied diet where nothing is over-represented. Now I drink milk without fear and choose full-fat over skim-- and this has not stopped me from losing weight and improving my quantifiable health markers.

    Study: Eating High-Fat Dairy Lowers Type 2 Diabetes Risk - Forbes
    High dairy fat intake related to less central obesity: A male cohort study with 12 years’ follow-up
    More cheese, please! News study shows dairy is good for your metabolic health -- ScienceDaily

    And a very interesting read on one of my favorite blogs about the "China Study" which is what most who promote vegetarian/vegan diets rely on: The China Study Revisited: New Analysis of Raw Data Doesn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Preaching to the choir there.
    I said that not as a personal random observation but to make you aware that basing your argument on in group consensus is very much a matter of opinion. The FDA has been criticized for both under and over regulations, so your argument to me holds about as much weight as "Hitler says this is for the good of Germany. " The FDA should be taken seriously but only up to a point, I don't find it wise to blindly trust any ONE corporate or government agency without comparing to other data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I do a ton of research and a doctor actually advised me to never ever take dayquil.
    Anecdotal evidence is irrelevant in debate.

    There are other products for fever reduction, such as plain aspirin, and ways to relieve congestion without legal speed, trust me.
    This is not how to debate, you don't tell people to trust you, you provide sources to support your argument.

    You continue to generalise. Pseudoephedrine is not Amphetamine ("legal speed"), the structures are similar, they're in the same chemical class however they're not the same drug.

    Here is Pseudoephedrine:



    Here is Amphetamine:



    Note the difference? The extra methyl (CH3) groups and the hydroxyl group (OH)?


    I don't ever take cold or cough medicine unless I am dying of the flu, and that's not even every year.
    Good for you but this is irrelevant to the debate.


    Addendum: also, cold and cough medicine will not heal the flu either, it is simply a way to make symptoms more tolerable. ..low grade fevers actually are good for you ...only high fevers require fever reduction, and the fact remains that Sudafed will not reduce the length of your cold

    Did you ignore what I previously wrote? Certain formulations help with the heeling process. People need their symptoms cleared because (and I don’t advocate this, I believe they should rest during that period) they have careers and family to attend to. Natural remedies don't treat all symptoms.
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  8. #198
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    By that token, I don't find it wise to blindly trust any one study without comparing it to other data, either. Especially the way science is reported.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Colds last like.. 2 days? 3 days? Why the hell would you even bother? I mean, sure, do whatever you can for a couple days.. I'm not taking 100x the amount my body needs of something because someone on the internet swears it works. Sorry, bro, NOTHING kills the cold virus except your own immune system, and for me that shit works whether I take cold meds or vitamin C. I try just try to make myself feel better and eliminate possible other causes before I accept having a cold truly. Not all the vitamin C in the world will kill your cold bug, so it seems crazy to me to take SO much of a substance that isn't really going to help your symptoms or actually help a cold duration. 1 1/2 days? Versus 2? Not worth it. I could use saline and get more relief. It's a preference thing only so far.



    I'll bet you wouldn't be surprised to hear me say there's been a ton of research, new drugs, and such that have come out since that 1985 study. A lot's happened in 30 years.



    Such a good point. I see so much people selling the antibacterial angle from both ends of the spectrum.. only, luckily, hippies are 'natural' and misguided on what antibacterial stuff tends to do on their end, so they actually don't do a ton of harm in this category.



    This is entirely my point. It isn't exactly that I want to seem like a "I HEART DOCTORZ GAIZ" person but people just don't have an appreciation for that. If I told someone, "Hey, I've never done this surgery before, but I swear I watched a ton of videos on it and read on the internet and books and science. So.. sign here?" they'd tell me to fuck off. When it's something like that, suddenly credentials matter. Before that, it's just snobby posh people.



    Mostly because the one that make the most noise make it for all the wrong reasons. instead of well established issues being discussed, it's some dog-breath celebrity girl crying about, like, science is all cold and stuff. "My kid has autism and I don't understand why.. but these people said it MIGHT be to blame, and I really want something to blame so I know I didn't do bad things as a parent."



    I told a girl on my facebook about this. I told her, "Hey, did you know this news source you're crediting information from is misleading? They're selling stuff left and right on the site that conveniently have stuff supporting the stuff they're selling, tons of ad tracker cookies on the site which is nearly comparable to porn sites, and literally say, "While we cannot draw any conclusions from this..." because They legally can't misrepresent someone's research? They can sake passive aggressive-esque twisty media things all they want after that charming disclaimer. Why don't you ever question why the skirt around those issues like lindmines?" ... Fell entirely on deaf ears.



    If you believe at all in evolution it would make a lot of sense that some cultures are more suited to eat certain foods than others. It's a topic I've wanted to study in the future sometime, but until then, yes diabetes is an illness.. just like developing an allergy or skin condition is. But your body having lactase, mantaining it, and using it truly is a matter of philosophical opinion. Like I've stated on the site before, I tried an all natural, raw food diet.. I carefully researched food combinations, meal plans for adequate calories, etc. etc. And I got really ill. Very ill. I gained weight, held water, felt like garbage, and nothing I did was far outside the parameters of what raw foodies suggest. I followed their teachings. My body just was not made for that. Also, I found out I have an oral allergy to all raw fruit. AN ALLERGY TO FRUIT, can you imagine? What a nonsense allergy. Does that mean I should swear off all fruit and all their delicious health benefits just because I get slightly uncomfortable? Or, can I take an allergy pill and get all those benefits? Or just cook the food, and saw raw foodies are full of it and some people need to cook their food? That's a philosophy thing. They aren't wrong for being raw--but it WAS wrong for me.

    Similarly, just judging people's choice to use milk in their health and diet (for whatever reasons) is opinionated overall. It's a philosophical question more than a science-based one. There's studies abound that are fighting all the time.. whether x is good, or bad, or neutral, or good and bad.. Milk is one of those topics. Generally speaking, if you aren't intolerant, it can help your health, and if you are, there's plenty of alternatives for you. I don't see why diary is overly demonized when people abuse it and don't just eat the proper portions of it.. most things when over used are bad for you.

    The Japanese constantly deal with issues like constipation from high rice diets, which is just as uncomfortable as lactose intolerance episodes. Their diet is great, and healthy, but it's far from perfect. I study their diet and trends a lot more than the average American would, I've always had an interest in the country, and I believe Americans would benefit greatly from the principles. But leaping to the conclusion that low dairy makes for a better diet is negating the entirety of the benefits of their diet which is regardless of dairy existing in it or not.
    I would never make an argument for a raw food diet, and yes certain groups benefit from slightly different diets, probably for evolutionary reasons, not just the ability to digest milk but other things as well (for example, alcoholics can't control their alcohol consumption as easily as people who are not genetically pre disposed to alcoholism). I am referring to recent studies on dairy products and already stated that my intent is not to "convert" but to challenge the widely held (and commercially endorsed) American notion that milk is a wonder elixir. The fact that it produces mucus and can aggravate acne isn't philosophical, and neither are the most recent medical findings as of 2014...philosophy is avoiding milk for animal rights or religious or environmental reasons.

    The Japanese have a better diet than we do, as do Mediterranean people who consume dairy but in MUCH SMALLER quantities. Those are two of the best cultural diets found on earth for overall health and longevity.

    Paleos as well as vegans cut out dairy, as do some other people who still consume meat or eggs.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I said that not as a personal random observation but to make you aware that basing your argument on in group consensus is very much a matter of opinion. The FDA has been criticized for both under and over regulations, so your argument to me holds about as much weight as "Hitler says this is for the good of Germany. " The FDA should be taken seriously but only up to a point, I don't find it wise to blindly trust any ONE corporate or government agency without comparing to other data.
    In the world of science group consensus IS important. I have said this several times to several people so far and it seems like it just doesn't want to be accepted. That is how science works. Period. End of story. No ifs ands or buts. It's not a matter of opinion at all. It is how we validate research, it's how we support findings. It's how ALL fields use it. For this reason, your comparison to hitler doesn't apply. Also, just because the FDA says something, doesn't mean that they personally did it. Quite often, they act as an aggregate and pull from research done throughout the country and sometimes through the world. I am also not blindly trusting them. I have trust in them for a reason, but it is not full faith and trust of course. It's not the only major research institution. We also have the CDC, NIH, ACS, APA, there are tons of groups. The scientific community at large has a collective voice, and they use a channel when data is collected from multiple independent sources.
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