Nature VS Modern Medicine and weeding out what truly works.

[Mole]

The Faith Healers of West Africa first of all rejected the medical interpretation of Ebola, and rejected the medical workers, and even killed a few of them. But eventually the Faith Healers succumbed to Ebola, and the medical interpretation holds.

Of course West Africa is poor and reality can't be held at bay for long, quite unlike the prosperous West where we can believe whatever fantasies we like, and have the wherewithall to avoid reality.

In fact at a deep and unconscious level we still believe in and practise Faith Healing. For instance, we will not elect a President of the United States of America unless they are a person of Faith. So unconsciously we regard the President as a Faith Healer.

And even in far off Australia we regularly hear the President say his job is healing.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

I can understand that some of the naturalists and naturopaths are over the top and really not grounded in anything empirical. But how people can speak, like industrialization has no consequence on human health and the environment, is beyond me. Or that continuing industrialization won't have consequences.

 

[kyuuei]

Forks Over Knives, the actual documentary, is based on nutrition, very little philosophy involved.
...
Forks Over Knives instead of just searching for critiques of it, you will see some of the healthiest looking old people you have probably seen anywhere. Just admit that maybe you did it wrong or did it wrong for your body, or that you may be one of the people who happen to need more animal products.

I've seen the documentary. It's a lot of heart felt stories and a lot of opinions and based on very little facts. I even AGREE with the message--eat healthy, incorporate wholesome foods in your diet, etc. But they are clearly eating a vegan diet, and there is a very real reason they avoided labeling it vegan even though it clearly is that. They are clearly claiming ALL animal products are bad, which is what veganism does, despite research showing fish and other products like that are perfectly acceptable choices for healthy lifestyles.

And some, many, of the stuff they're quoting is just wrong. The China Study was completely flawed, just because a study exists doesn't mean it's good. The foundations for the china study were wrong, and the study itself was just a mess.

The critique is not about whether the message is agreed with or not--the author agrees with the message to an extent. But. It lays out some extremely important details being completely, and very conveniently, overlooked for the sake of saying a message they believe in. And if a message is that true and virtuous, the you don't need to skirt around the truth to get it out there to people.

I'm saying, yet again, veganism is fine, but not fine for me, or many people, and it is a very very restricted diet and I'm now wary of anything that restricted without some hard science showing real results that couldn't be had otherwise. The data they're showcasing in the documentary is fatally flawed in several areas, not just one area. That's why it's so long--they're using the data and research based on the data of the documentary to see if the data actually lines up. And it doesn't.

Just because it's a real documentary doesn't mean everything they say is accurate. And that's what the critique aims to do. I can show you a hundred textbooks that say faulty information about history for the sake of making a country of origin look better.

I can understand that some of the naturalists and naturopaths are over the top and really not grounded in anything empirical. But how people can speak, like industrialization has no consequence on human health and the environment, is beyond me. Or that continuing industrialization won't have consequences.

Naturalists actually make natural medicine take a lot of steps backwards with the stuff they pull imo. I can easily see myself not wanting to be associated, as a new researcher, with homeopathic medicine when so much pseudoscience is pumped out of it all the time. You want to gain credentials, because those are super useful for stuff in a completely valid way. It isn't that industrialization lacks consequences.. but the people with good ideas aren't promoting them in the right way, or the people that want good ideas aren't getting them the right way. I mean, look how long it's taking for tiny house movements for example to get mainstream? Now they are, but people lived in small houses for ages before all of this industrialization. No one promoted their lifestyle, everyone conformed to it and didn't push back hard enough. And now Houston is one the very few cities left without restricted building codes for unrestricted land. And even they have housing codes.

 

[Mole]

I can understand that some of the naturalists and naturopaths are over the top and really not grounded in anything empirical. But how people can speak, like industrialization has no consequence on human health and the environment, is beyond me. Or that continuing industrialization won't have consequences.

China, India and Indonesia are industrialising while Australia is post-industrial.

Australia is re-tribalising in the global village.

Industry is based on print, while the global village is based on the electric media like Central.

Industrialisation in China in the last 20 years has raised 350 million Chinese from abject poverty to prosperity.

And post-industrialisation has given Australians the longest life spans and the best health.

But best of all, post-industrial Australia works co-operatively with industrialising China to the benefit of us both. Just the other day the President of China, Xi Jinping, addressed our two Houses of Parliament and signed a far reaching free trade agreement.

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

China, India and Indonesia are industrialising while Australia is post-industrial.

Australia is re-tribalising in the global village.

Industry is based on print, while the global village is based on the electric media like Central.

Industrialisation in China in the last 20 years has raised 350 million Chinese from abject poverty to prosperity.

And post-industrialisation has given Australians the longest life spans and the best health.

But best of all, post-industrial Australia works co-operatively with industrialising China to the benefit of us both. Just the other day the President of China, Xi Jinping, addressed our two Houses of Parliament and signed a far reaching free trade agreement.

Yes and it has given them hundreds of inflammatory diseases and autoimmune disorders, which were very rare a hundred years ago. While western medicine has increased life-expectancy, industrial environments and modern lifestyles have decreased life-quality for millions in the west. Lots of people are chronically ill. I've read that as many as 40-50% of americans have a chronic condition of some sort. Life quality is just as important as life-expectancy. It's really a double edged sword.

 

[prplchknz]

someone posted this on my facebook feed: Meet the Man Called

At first, he succumbed to the wishes of the doctor and decided to go in for surgery.

read was skepitical then did a google search and found this:
Yes, Chris beat cancer, but it wasn’t quackery that cured him � Science-Based Medicine

which is saying yes he didn't do chemo therapy but mentions he did have surgery and other treatments, even this is an important piece of info left out of the orginal article.

Now here’s the thing. The primary treatment for stage III colorectal cancer is still complete surgical resection. Everything else is icing on the cake. To illustrate this point, I ran an Adjuvant! Online estimate for the benefit of chemotherapy for a patient like Wark, who was 26 at the time of his diagnosis. This is a bit hard to do because I don’t have complete staging information. However, Wark was nice enough to inform his readers that he had four positive lymph nodes and a “golf ball sized tumor.” The latter bit of information doesn’t help, because for purposes of staging size doesn’t matter so much as how far the tumor has invaded through the layers of the wall of the colon, but the first bit of information about how many positive lymph nodes were discovered is quite useful because it tells me, when combined with the size of the cancer, that the original tumor was probably not stage IIIA. Most likely, it was stage IIIB, although it is certainly possible that he had stage IIIC disease. For purposes of discussion, I am going to assume he had stage IIIB disease. It’s close enough to make the point, and if he had stage IIIC disease, it would only make the case for chemotherapy stronger.

so he did have surgery, I'm sure the diet helped, but it didn't cure his cancer. first article is progaganda, and I hate it because people who get diagnosed with colon cancer might miss the part where he had surgery and try to cure with diet alone and end up dying themselves.

Mr. Wark’s odds of surviving 5 years with surgery alone would only be 30%, with FOLFOX chemotherapy increasing the odds to around 55%, nearly double. Of course, even in this extreme case, 30% is around a one in three chance; so survival without chemotherapy would not be that unusual. Although he would, in this case, have to be quite a bit luckier than in the case of stage IIIC disease, his survival would not be so unusual that it could be attributed to whatever woo he decided to partake of. Sadly, as is evident in an e-mail from Mr. Wark reprinted in a credulous article about his story, Mr. Wark does not understand the basics of adjuvant chemotherapy, or, if he does, he is not relating it correctly:

 

[kyuuei]

Such an awesome point [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]

He was still treating his chemo with modern medicine synthesized with natural medicine. A great display, but instead of promoting both within reason he condemns the former. It's good enough to promote to other people but not good enough to gamble his life on. Says volumes. And he's someone frequently featured as evidence of raw vegan lifestyles.

I've been particularly interested in protein and fats and the rat studies. Low protein diets promoting liver and body failures in general.

Japan is frequently showcased as vegetarian but it's highly inaccurate. Fish is a staple in the diet eaten daily or several times a week traditionally. A frequently forgotten detail in things like that documentary.

 

[prplchknz]

Such an awesome point [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION]

He was still treating his chemo with modern medicine synthesized with natural medicine. A great display, but instead of promoting both within reason he condemns the former. It's good enough to promote to other people but not good enough to gamble his life on. Says volumes. And he's someone frequently featured as evidence of raw vegan lifestyles.

I've been particularly interested in protein and fats and the rat studies. Low protein diets promoting liver and body failures in general.

Japan is frequently showcased as vegetarian but it's highly inaccurate. Fish is a staple in the diet eaten daily or several times a week traditionally. A frequently forgotten detail in things like that documentary.

yeah I hadn't heard of the guy. I don't like quacks, like i've said if nature could cure us of all diseases modern medicine wouldn't exist as the need wouldn't and even if it didn come about anyways, it would not be as big. The original article does mention that he did have surgery to have the tumor removed, he just opted out of the chemo treatments

 

[kyuuei]

yeah I hadn't heard of the guy. I don't like quacks, like i've said if nature could cure us of all diseases modern medicine wouldn't exist as the need wouldn't and even if it didn come about anyways, it would not be as big. The original article does mention that he did have surgery to have the tumor removed, he just opted out of the chemo treatments

And preying on people's lack of education to make money. Disgusting.

My friend always posts on fb from fear mongering sites like food babe and green med tv. I tried to very nicely point out that these people make and market themselves and collect tons of money that really isn't getting repurposed for anything but lining pockets. There's a reason those disclaimers need to be legally claimed. And why doctors practicing natural medicine have lost their licensures sometimes in modern medicine before turning to natural medicine.

 

[prplchknz]

And preying on people's lack of education to make money. Disgusting.

My friend always posts on fb from fear mongering sites like food babe and green med tv. I tried to very nicely point out that these people make and market themselves and collect tons of money that really isn't getting repurposed for anything but lining pockets. There's a reason those disclaimers need to be legally claimed. And why doctors practicing natural medicine have lost their licensures sometimes in modern medicine before turning to natural medicine.

I agree.ugh I've seen food babe bs. I don't have a lot of friends who can't/don't think critically and I'm quick to post a link that explains why they're a dumb ass. So this was a friend of a friend and I couldn't reply to the post. I tried explaining to my roommate that kombucha can't get you drunk. Didn't get it and said she was gonna bitch at the manager. I pointed out that the bottle says

contains trace amount of alcohol

smh.I feel bad for the employee. She thinks organic is healthier and that you lose weight by eating organic, so yeah

 

[kyuuei]

I agree.ugh I've seen food babe bs. I don't have a lot of friends who can't/don't think critically and I'm quick to post a link that explains why they're a dumb ass. So this was a friend of a friend and I couldn't reply to the post. I tried explaining to my roommate that kombucha can't get you drunk. Didn't get it and said she was gonna bitch at the manager. I pointed out that the bottle says smh.I feel bad for the employee. She thinks organic is healthier and that you lose weight by eating organic, so yeah

Let's get wasted off Kombucha! hahaha.. ... I mean, yeah, organic food is healthy. But the organic label isn't really so regulated. Organic fresh vegetables has a VASTLY different nutrient density and health rating as organic pop-tarts. The label itself doesn't mean you're in the clear.

My sister's still stuck in the 80s and 90s somehow, thinking fat-free foods help you lose weight by virtue of being fat free. It's like pulling teeth trying to get her used to the idea of eating enough calories to sustain her energy levels so she can actually lose weight vs mini starve/binge sessions she tends to do with these 1 1/2 meals a day. Low fat low protein diets are just.. bleh. All around bleh.

 

[prplchknz]

Let's get wasted off Kombucha! hahaha.. ... I mean, yeah, organic food is healthy. But the organic label isn't really so regulated. Organic fresh vegetables has a VASTLY different nutrient density and health rating as organic pop-tarts. The label itself doesn't mean you're in the clear.

My sister's still stuck in the 80s and 90s somehow, thinking fat-free foods help you lose weight by virtue of being fat free. It's like pulling teeth trying to get her used to the idea of eating enough calories to sustain her energy levels so she can actually lose weight vs mini starve/binge sessions she tends to do with these 1 1/2 meals a day. Low fat low protein diets are just.. bleh. All around bleh.

yeah I can't imagine low protein diets being good, I've inadverntently done them same with low carb (never intentional) and i felt so weak it wasn't fun.

 

[Mademoiselle]

Depends.

 

[prplchknz]

Let's get wasted off Kombucha! hahaha.. ... I mean, yeah, organic food is healthy. But the organic label isn't really so regulated. Organic fresh vegetables has a VASTLY different nutrient density and health rating as organic pop-tarts. The label itself doesn't mean you're in the clear.

My sister's still stuck in the 80s and 90s somehow, thinking fat-free foods help you lose weight by virtue of being fat free. It's like pulling teeth trying to get her used to the idea of eating enough calories to sustain her energy levels so she can actually lose weight vs mini starve/binge sessions she tends to do with these 1 1/2 meals a day. Low fat low protein diets are just.. bleh. All around bleh.

I tried to explain that fermentation no matter what produces alcohol. she's not super smart, but i really think the most people who are vastly successful in the rat race are of average intelligence and don't question things, or really think critically. probably .01% of successful people are really smart but that's because they had the oppurtunity or created the oppurtunity to do what they were good at and didn't answer to any one, did so just long enough to break off on there own. But you know everyone thinks they're a genius, no one is. ok maybe some are, but you or me probably aren't

 

[kyuuei]

I tried to explain that fermentation no matter what produces alcohol. she's not super smart, but i really think the most people who are vastly successful in the rat race are of average intelligence and don't question things, or really think critically. probably .01% of successful people are really smart but that's because they had the oppurtunity or created the oppurtunity to do what they were good at and didn't answer to any one, did so just long enough to break off on there own. But you know everyone thinks they're a genius, no one is. ok maybe some are, but you or me probably aren't

After that stunt I did last night (thinking my plant was a monster because of the shadow on the wall) I'm definitely not.

 

[prplchknz]

After that stunt I did last night (thinking my plant was a monster because of the shadow on the wall) I'm definitely not.

what stunt? no worries i thought the reflection of my phone on the ceiling was a portal to somewhere one night and that freaked me out.

 

[kyuuei]

what stunt? no worries i thought the reflection of my phone on the ceiling was a portal to somewhere one night and that freaked me out.

hahaha. Yeah I jumped like a cat to the ceiling when I saw my stupid rosemary plant's shadow. Beaten by a rosemary plant!!

 

[prplchknz]

hahaha. Yeah I jumped like a cat to the ceiling when I saw my stupid rosemary plant's shadow. Beaten by a rosemary plant!!

tbh i don't think they use eye tricks as a measure of intelligence. then again i don't professionally measure intelligence so prove some other way how you're not a genius, i don't think you are, but that evidence would be thrown out of court.

 

[kyuuei]

The Detox Scam: How to spot it, and how to avoid it � Science-Based Medicine

Someone brought this topic up on facebook today, and it's a great one and a personal one because I was totally swept up into this food fad thing this year--and I feel like a numbskull still about it. And naturally the best way to feel better for me is to recover by finding knowledge to prevent it from happening again.

The story of detox diets is not a new one, it's been played for years and years.. being spun into nearly every diet fad ever. Recently, it's been spun into juicing.. which is potentially pretty harmful for the body. "Spend 14 days drinking nothing but juice and it will rid you of your horrible cheeseburger sins! Only $149.99 a week! Delivered to your door! You don't even have to step foot outside and you're already going to be healthier for ordering!" Only diets and fashion could trick people into thinking being dizzy, nauseous, cramping in pain, and fatigued is a good thing and the right thing for them to do.

The only ways to truly detox are to eat right, exercise, get sleep, drink water, be proactive about your health, and be proactive about your environmental and psychological health.

 

[kyuuei]

If there is any hippy website I hate, it's greenmedinfo.

New Study Signals Wheat-Autism Link | GreenMedInfo | Blog Entry

Not only do the massively profit off of the people visiting the site and, in turn, buying their products.. but they twist science constantly to their cause. They purposefully mislead people. One of my friends always links their bullshit, and she's totally swept up by them. I'm not angry at her.. I'm angry at the site. The site throws around just enough science-y sounding things to convince people but twists it in such a delicate way as to make themselves sound right while, in fact, evading any true misrepresentations and allowing people to 'assume' the misrepresentations they lead them directly into.

And as vaccines + autism are showing no link and more and more people are believing it.. people are quickly looking for new sources of blame.

Wheat has the same problems as anything else though. Wheat has been consumed for centuries, autism is a recent epidemic (though the prevalence rates are a bit of a mystery because it is a recent diagnosis), and the two just don't correlate even close enough to be a source of blame. But throw some IgG's in there, and some protein-this-and-that, and suddenly you have something scary sounding enough.


I really think we need a name for these guys. they aren't quite hippies (as I can associate peace-sign-throwing, weed-smoking loving hippies of the 60s with the word too), they're not hipsters at all though they have that 'I rebel against the norm' attitude, they aren't foodies because that ranges from Andrew Zimmerman style all the way to whole foods only persons and raw vegans. And Raw vegans don't cover the boundaries, many vegetarians are completely sensible, and vegans even have a bit of merit to them in and of themselves.


No, this is a particular trend of .. duped people, pseudo science, buzzword overkill, and angry resentful stuff without really seeing who's profitting off of all of these movements and paradoxical rebel-against-american-mentalities-with-american-mentalities. I was thinking about the neckbeard thread where I was unaware there was a perfect term for the females--legbeards. There's got to be a cutesy term that defines this.

So if anyone knows of a good term for these guys I'm all ears.