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View Poll Results: Do you believe in the farmacy trend?

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  • I'm a hippy and I'm proud of it. Also, I have proof it works. No aluminum DO for me!

    3 7.69%
  • I'm kind of a hippy, but I was brought up that way, and/or I like moral aspects of the trend.

    4 10.26%
  • This is a thing? Who's Jenny McCarthy? I mean, I guess both are fine.

    4 10.26%
  • Science trumps turnips all day. Beets and apples won't keep you from having eczema hunny, sorry.

    24 61.54%
  • I don't really care at all. I can't afford either of them anyways.

    4 10.26%
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  1. #131
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Can Ancient Herbs Treat Cancer?

    Sixty-two percent of chemotherapy drugs come from natural products, and plants have been the basis of almost every new class of medication
    For Bionovo, the drug discovery and development company in Emeryville, Calif., that's behind BZL101, there's hope too. The trial is the first FDA-validated clinical study of a potential cancer drug derived from a Chinese medicinal herb
    Drug companies are sending researchers to the jungles of the Amazon in search of medicines all the time.

    Amazon divulges malaria antidote

    One of the most potent anti-malarial chemicals known to science has been found in the Amazon rainforest, unnoticed by the indigenous people who often fall victim to the disease.

    University researchers identified an antibiotic peptide complex called coronamycin being produced by fungus-like bacteria growing inside a little-known tree-hugging vine.

    Initial tests suggested that, molecule-for-molecule, coronamycin was more effective against the malaria parasite than chloroquin, the main anti-malarial agent that is becoming increasingly obsolete as the parasite develops resistance against it.
    The bias against "natural" treatments is simply ignorance. Chemicals are chemicals. Sometimes, you get lucky with a natural chemical and sometimes, you come up with synthetics that work.
    Vi Cit Tecum.
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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    lolz if you didn't want to argue the topic, I would think you wouldn't bother posting at all.

    Natural medicine preys on people just as much and if not more than modern medicine. All the damn time. Completely using false facts, misleading people, abusing passive-aggressive-and-technically-politically-correct tones to market and sell and sell and sell some more to people who genuinely want to do the right things for their body and buy into advertising because that's what it's designed to make people do.

    And, unlike doctors, no one needs to go through any real training to become a provider of natural medicine. If having an optimistic view of doctors is naive and simplistic, then that's fine with me. Without my education and training I could have easily seen myself throwing away hundreds of dollars on snake oils, and even with it I've been duped by natural medicine's 'miracle' bullshit quite an embarrassingly-many times. So, yeah, I'm not nearly as optimistic about it, and I think it needs to be very closely scrutinized before beginning any natural remedy.
    My mom went to nursing school, my cousin is a nurse, and my uncle was a medic in the army and none of them take your awed tone towards doctors (it's a soap opera cliche, the naive nurse seduced by the doctor) and none of them are as hostile to natural medicine as you are, in fact my mother and uncle are well versed on nutrition. Two of my sisters additionally have Bachelors degrees in Biology and also promote natural wellness.

    I have been reasonable about the pros and cons of both sides, honestly your bias to Western medicine is blinding you. You will grow out of it. I think you are just an overly worshipful and enthusiastic nursing student. You are not that we'll inforned, you didn't even know that DDS stands for Doctor of Dental Surgery.

    While I agree with you about vaccines, I don't about preventative medicine in the slightest, and I find your trust of the health care industry borderline alarming.

  3. #133
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    My mom went to nursing school, my cousin is a nurse, and my uncle was a medic in the army and none of them take your awed tone towards doctors (it's a soap opera cliche, the naive nurse seduced by the doctor) and none of them are as hostile to natural medicine as you are, in fact my mother and uncle are well versed on nutrition. Two of my sisters additionally have Bachelors degrees in Biology and also promote natural wellness.
    I'm not really having a discussion with your mother and uncle and cousin now am I? I'm talking to this forum. I'm not hostile towards natural medicine, and I use it all the time. I'm hostile towards how easily people accept SOME natural medicine being legit as ALL natural medicine being legit. Which is annoying at best, and actually causing a lot of harm to community health overall.

    You aren't reading any of my points at all. I'm saying optimistic things about doctors because they are true. They are NOT true for every doctor, nor every practice.

    No one would put as much trust into doctors as a bunch of hippy people are putting into natural medicine. Someone reads a quasi-real-looking article on buzzfeed about how GMOs are bad for you, and bam, suddenly they're bad for you. No research needed, no looking at both sides of the spectrum, let's make farmers and doctors and everyone bad guys for supplying you with NECESSARY food.

    I think a lot of these food trends are easy ways out of real objective research and thought. Gluten free? Even if the generous estimates of half the population are true... That means there are many people out there avoiding gluten for no reason at all, spending money on unnecessary 'medicine' in the form of gluten-free food. People decided to avoid dairy, because fuck it, vegans don't like it and say it's bad for you, so let's quit it. I see it a lot, and I've tried some of it and the more I'm talking to people trying it the more I realized what bullshit was being fed to people for no reason. They were quitting it in the name of health, not in the name of what is truly healthy for them

    I have been reasonable about the pros and cons of both sides, honestly your bias to Western medicine is blinding you. You will grow out of it. I think you are just an overly worshipful and enthusiastic nursing student. You are not that we'll inforned, you didn't even know that DDS stands for Doctor of Dental Surgery.
    I don't have my dentist making my medical decisions is what I meant. YES they have the license or whatever, but there are also 'doctors' of History, and art, and theater, and I don't go to them when I'm sick. I mean a doctor trained in dealing with illness, and doctors trained in health. Dentists specialize. There's nothing wrong with that, we need that, but they aren't magically geniuses at health and well being just because they became a doctor.

    While I agree with you about vaccines, I don't about preventative medicine in the slightest, and I find your trust of the health care industry borderline alarming.
    Again, you're illustrating my point entirely. Me posting ANYTHING optimistic about doctors and modern medicine is appalling and alarming and warrants over-reactive comments on my supposed education status, and such and on and on.

    Yet when it comes to super alarming, proven issues with natural medicine, it's all dismissively, "Oh, yeah, that vaccine stuff I agree with but still.." The tone itself you're exuding is exactly what I'm calling attention towards.

    There are just as many bad, nasty, rotten spots in natural medicine out to make money, sell snake oils, and put band aids on shit as there is modern medicine, and yet people are touting one around as if it's some brilliant movement back into the enlightened stone ages while the other is complete filth and garbage with some nice people who know what they're doing trying to desperately cling to a failing system.

    I'm pointing out that for every bad point you make on modern medicine, I can put one on natural medicine, and both of them have good, great, fantastic practitioners and terrible, ugly, money-hungry ones.

    I prefer, overall, modern medical practices because I like the concept of washing your hands, sanitation, developing food that everyone can eat because it's proven people live longer when they have food, etc. etc. Those are modern concepts I agree with and support IN general. I don't like the seemingly objective but just as emotionally driven moral-high-horse people touting around natural medicine like it's some new bible of medicine we lost in a cave somewhere and just discovered.


    Morals are not medicine. Those are society driven, subjective things. It may be more moral to, for example, eat whole foods vs GMO foods or whatever. I don't know if it is or not, and I'd argue it isn't. But trying to turn that into science that just isn't there doesn't make it more objective. These are things being argued about for a reason--the science isn't there. Vaccines have hundreds of years and science backing it up, tons of research and tons more of modern recent research, and people STILL don't believe that shit works and are scared it'll fuck you up and fear monger anyone that thinks otherwise. I don't expect GMO debates, or many others, to be objective for a very very long time.
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  4. #134
    Senior Member Adam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    My mom went to nursing school, my cousin is a nurse, and my uncle was a medic in the army and none of them take your awed tone towards doctors (it's a soap opera cliche, the naive nurse seduced by the doctor) and none of them are as hostile to natural medicine as you are, in fact my mother and uncle are well versed on nutrition. Two of my sisters additionally have Bachelors degrees in Biology and also promote natural wellness.
    Natural medicine becomes Western medicine once enough evidence of the alleged healing effects has been gathered using the scientific method and an affirmative consensus is established. A bias for Western medicine is simply a bias for the modern scientific method. While I agree that one shouldn't be so rash as to completely dismiss all other remedies than those whose beneficial effects are supported by a scientific consensus, this restraint should only be applied in cases where no consensus exists due to lack of study or controversy.
    ‘Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.’

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    when few have too much and fewer too little.’.
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  5. #135
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    If the alternative medicine doesn't have any harmful side-effects, what's the harm? I took 12 to 14 grams of Vitamin C (1 gram/hour) for my cold on the testimony of some people on a Vitamin C forum; it works. Vit C killed the cold on day 1. We're in the flu/cold season right now. I'd recommend that everyone take massive doses of Vitamin C the next time they notice the first symptoms of a cold. Report back.
    Vi Cit Tecum.

  6. #136
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Natural medicine becomes Western medicine once enough evidence of the alleged healing effects has been gathered using the scientific method and an affirmative consensus is established. A bias for Western medicine is simply a bias for the modern scientific method. While I agree that one shouldn't be so rash as to completely dismiss all other remedies than those whose beneficial effects are supported by a scientific consensus, this restraint should only be applied in cases where no consensus exists due to lack of study or controversy.
    This is an important distinction. People tend to trust doctors because there is an established vetting process, both for themselves as medical professionals, as well as for their methods and treatments. That doesn't mean they are infallible, or that modern medical techniques have no side effects or drawbacks, some of which may not yet be understood. What it does mean is that the patient can in general have a higher confidence level in this sort of medicine vs. older traditional methods that have not undergone systematic and documented evaluation.

    That being said, there is no substitute for a consumer of medical treatment (i.e. patient) doing his/her own homework, the better to understand his/her condition and the treatment options available. Even if our doctor is knowledgeable and trustworthy, an informed patient is a more engaged and responsible patient. Ignorance can only hurt us. I have gone against medical advice on several occasions after doing my own research, but in these cases have felt a real "burden of proof" to be sure of my own conclusions before taking this step.

    Unfortunately conventional doctors are sometimes guided not simply by science, but also by other factors like economics or the litigiousness of modern society. This can affect prescribed treatment and possibly even stated diagnoses, either in the interests of increasing income, or in order to avoid lawsuits (defensive medicine).

    As for the harm in using an "alternative remedy" with no side effects: if it does not cure the problem, it might delay the patient from applying a remedy that will, while the condition becomes worse. Probably not a big deal for something like athlete's foot, but can make a big difference for more life-threatening conditions.
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  7. #137
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    As for the harm in using an "alternative remedy" with no side effects: if it does not cure the problem, it might delay the patient from applying a remedy that will, while the condition becomes worse. Probably not a big deal for something like athlete's foot, but can make a big difference for more life-threatening conditions.
    Great point and I've considered it, but how many medical conditions are really "cured" using conventional medications? Doctors prescribe statins to treat cholesterol but it doesn't cure the condition. They prescribe a host of hypertension medications to control it but none of them are cures. Some cancers are "cured" but there are many more such as pancreatic cancer which have a very low cure rate. Arthritis isn't cured; eczema isn't cured; psoriasis isn't cured; irregular heartbeats isn't cured; diabetes isn't cured. They really can't cure colds or the flu; they merely seek to reduce the severity of the symptoms.

    For infections, physical injuries, heart attacks and other catastrophic injuries, conventional medicine is the best, but for the chronic conditions....you really can't go wrong with seeking alternative treatments. In fact, I'd say that there are many alternative treatments that are as good and even better than conventional treatments.
    Vi Cit Tecum.

  8. #138
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    Wall Street Journal Article:

    "A Push to Back Traditional Chinese Medicine With More Data: Researchers Marry Modern Analytical Techniques to Centuries-Old Theories on What Makes People Sick"

    Basically the gist is that Western researchers are doing data research on some aspects of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM).

    Link: A Push to Back Traditional Chinese Medicine With More Data - WSJ - WSJ
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  9. #139
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    Great point and I've considered it, but how many medical conditions are really "cured" using conventional medications? Doctors prescribe statins to treat cholesterol but it doesn't cure the condition. They prescribe a host of hypertension medications to control it but none of them are cures. Some cancers are "cured" but there are many more such as pancreatic cancer which have a very low cure rate. Arthritis isn't cured; eczema isn't cured; psoriasis isn't cured; irregular heartbeats isn't cured; diabetes isn't cured. They really can't cure colds or the flu; they merely seek to reduce the severity of the symptoms.

    For infections, physical injuries, heart attacks and other catastrophic injuries, conventional medicine is the best, but for the chronic conditions....you really can't go wrong with seeking alternative treatments. In fact, I'd say that there are many alternative treatments that are as good and even better than conventional treatments.
    Anyone with a chronic condition who dismisses conventional treatments is playing Russian roulette with his/her health. If an alternative treatment is better, it should be shown to be better through demonstrated and documented results, and not assumed to be better simply because it is not conventional. The chronic (not acute) nature of the condition should give the patient plenty of time to do this homework. The patient should understand the alternatives, and make an informed choice.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Natural medicine becomes Western medicine once enough evidence of the alleged healing effects has been gathered using the scientific method and an affirmative consensus is established. A bias for Western medicine is simply a bias for the modern scientific method. While I agree that one shouldn't be so rash as to completely dismiss all other remedies than those whose beneficial effects are supported by a scientific consensus, this restraint should only be applied in cases where no consensus exists due to lack of study or controversy.
    That's a bit naive, given our FDA approving garbage like pink slime and other food additives that are banned in Western Europe and Japan (there are lists of chemicals only legal for consumption in the U.S. and no other first world nation). Also bear in mind that some natural medicine would take millions away from the health care industry, you can easily find academic essays online doctors wrote about how modern medicine making people sicker and against chemotherapy.

    I am careful to cross reference multiple sources, but I don’t necessarily think FDA approval is necessary if I have checked multiple references and there are little to no side effects. If I needed surgery after a horrific accident or something along those lines, I am all for Western medicine, I am not a religious extremist, but I don’t go run to the doctor in the way some minions have been conditioned to do so that they can take more pills and spend more money, you don't need antibiotics or Accutane to stop your acne, just stop eating dairy and refined sugar, easy peasy.

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