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  1. #31
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    My place in the lottery of birth is one I would never voluntarily give up. I would rather have someone press the "reset" button on my brain if I got bored after 1000 years or something than kill me and let me be reborn. For all I know anything could happen. I could be reborn in the Andromeda galaxy. I could be reborn a squirrel. I could be reborn in an alternate universe or dimension. I could be reborn as a Russian cannibal who gets caught and sent to live out the remaining 40 years of my life in a maximum security prison in Siberia. I just saw a documentary on that shit today. Hell exists on Earth my friends. Hell exists on Earth.

  2. #32
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    My place in the lottery of birth is one I would never voluntarily give up. I would rather have someone press the "reset" button on my brain if I got bored after 1000 years or something than kill me and let me be reborn. For all I know anything could happen. I could be reborn in the Andromeda galaxy. I could be reborn a squirrel. I could be reborn in an alternate universe or dimension. I could be reborn as a Russian cannibal who gets caught and sent to live out the remaining 40 years of my life in a maximum security prison in Siberia. I just saw a documentary on that shit today. Hell exists on Earth my friends. Hell exists on Earth.
    Just continually kill yourself until you end up in a place you like. It's like channel hopping, all the cool kids are doing it.

  3. #33
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Just continually kill yourself until you end up in a place you like. It's like channel hopping, all the cool kids are doing it.
    That's exactly how I see it, actually. I don't think any of my memory or personality is carried over, but if consciousness came about once, it will come about again. The problem with that approach is not being able to remember the plan from one life to the next. It would be nice, though, to be born in a post-singularity dream world of immortality, super well-being, and creativity. In an infinite universe, everything must exist o_o

  4. #34
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    That's exactly how I see it, actually. I don't think any of my memory or personality is carried over, but if consciousness came about once, it will come about again. The problem with that approach is not being able to remember the plan from one life to the next. It would be nice, though, to be born in a post-singularity dream world of immortality, super well-being, and creativity. In an infinite universe, everything must exist o_o
    Haha... I was just riffing. That sounds overly hopeful, just like all the ramblings of Kurzweil. I take my cues from everything else I witnessed in life. There's a time to make an entrance and time to make an exit, the knowledge of that makes the stuff in the middle meaningful. The alternative is the equivalent of watching all 10 hours of Nyan Cat.

  5. #35
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Haha... I was just riffing. That sounds overly hopeful, just like all the ramblings of Kurzweil. I take my cues from everything else I witnessed in life. There's a time to make an entrance and time to make an exit, the knowledge of that makes the stuff in the middle meaningful. The alternative is the equivalent of watching all 10 hours of Nyan Cat.
    Now you are rationalizing death! Death doesn't make life meaningful!

    Kurzweil is quite realistic. He dedicated an entire chapter of The Singularity is Near to the dangers of biotech, nanotech, and AI and what should be done about them. I think he sees no reason not to maintain a generally positive outlook, though. The man is incredibly smart and rational, and quite personable to boot. Definitely someone I look up to at this point in my life.

  6. #36
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Now you are rationalizing death! Death doesn't make life meaningful!

    Kurzweil is quite realistic. He dedicated an entire chapter of The Singularity is Near to the dangers of biotech, nanotech, and AI and what should be done about them. I think he sees no reason not to maintain a generally positive outlook, though. The man is incredibly smart and rational, and quite personable to boot. Definitely someone I look up to at this point in my life.
    He's an evangelizer, most futurists are. They're selling something, themselves, never trust anybody who's selling anything. My opinion is from taking an immense interest in the future myself, I dreamed with an Alvin Toffler paper back at my knee as a preteen. But also, as being a developer. It's simple, everything takes longer than you hoped, even if you thought you had everything covered. Kurzy doesn't have everything covered, there's so much.

    Death's role in our perception is beyond rationalization, it it at the root of our existence. I have a hunch that if immortality is achieved before we proverbially blow ourselves up, (the possibility mass death up sooner, and the possibility immortality much later), our psyches wouldn't be able to quite process it.

    Omni mag in the 90's told me we'd all be driving diamond cars by now, I am dissapoint.

  7. #37
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    @Qlip I don't think evangelism is inherently bad; I would consider myself one. To me the only thing that can be good or bad is the substance behind what is being evangelized. It is really quite impossible not to be an evangelist. Even you are trying to convince me of your beliefs not to trust evangelists or people selling something.

    One example Kurzweil uses (of many) is the pace of the human genome project. After 7 years they were 1% done and Kurzweil said, "great, it's almost finished." Indeed, it only took another 7 years, despite predictions that it would take hundreds. We can't anticipate what future technology will be, just that it will be, and it will be better and faster.

    Bill Gates said no one would ever need more than 75 kilobytes of hard drive space!

    Some predictions on the future are too optimistic, some are way too pessimistic. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the great number of intellectuals who thought flight would not be a possibility just a few short years before it pretty much became ubiquitous.

    So, while we may not have our flying cars yet (technically we do, Terrafugia is coming out with them this year) many other areas of tech have zoomed way ahead of what anyone would have ever predicted.

    Now, what does "at the root of our existence" mean, exactly?

  8. #38
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Qlip I don't think evangelism is inherently bad; I would consider myself one. To me the only thing that can be good or bad is the substance behind what is being evangelized. It is really quite impossible not to be an evangelist. Even you are trying to convince me of your beliefs not to trust evangelists or people selling something.
    My stake is minimal and engenders minimal self-delusion, since all at stake here is a distraction concerning a field that interests me. Kurzweil's and your interest is the same that made many a human do some damned crazy things, brave dangerous journeys, bathe in the blood of virgins, etc, etc.

    One example Kurzweil uses (of many) is the pace of the human genome project. After 7 years they were 1% done and Kurzweil said, "great, it's almost finished." Indeed, it only took another 7 years, despite predictions that it would take hundreds. We can't anticipate what future technology will be, just that it will be, and it will be better and faster.

    Bill Gates said no one would ever need more than 75 kilobytes of hard drive space!

    Some predictions on the future are too optimistic, some are way too pessimistic. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about the great number of intellectuals who thought flight would not be a possibility just a few short years before it pretty much became ubiquitous.
    Oh, so many gaps. It boggles my mind trying to explain the difference between storage space, speed, data and the actual ability to process it to achieve a result that may or may not be able to exist in the real world, let alone the social waters to navigate in the process. Plus all those things are only projections.

    I still firmly believe that nuclear power is our best source of energy next to solar (if we get some damned better energy storage solutions), but what's standing in the way isn't technology.

    So, while we may not have our flying cars yet (technically we do, Terrafugia is coming out with them this year) many other areas of tech have zoomed way ahead of what anyone would have ever predicted.
    I said diamond cars, as in printed, but I'm glad you brought the flying car up. They are the poster child for impractical futures. What the past futurists didn't predict is the shortage of energy. Flying cars will always be impractical as long as it's significantly cheaper to roll on the ground.

    Now, what does "at the root of our existence" mean, exactly?
    The interesting thing about death, is that it will never truly exist to a conscious being, meaning simply that once it happens, we won't experience it. But it looms large because the perception of our death is what drives us as conscious beings (for instance, Kurzweil's career). Consciousness is evolution's answer to effective procurement of resources and self-replication, i.e. the avoidance of death. Death is integral to experience, and I have a hunch that the introduction of immortality to our experience could cause some very interesting psychoses.

  9. #39
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    My stake is minimal and engenders minimal self-delusion, since all at stake here is a distraction concerning a field that interests me. Kurzweil's and your interest is the same that made many a human do some damned crazy things, brave dangerous journeys, bathe in the blood of virgins, etc, etc.
    That's a valid distinction, I suppose, but then I would have to draw another one between strong evangelism of something rational and strong evangelism of something irrational. Kurzweil gets results. The man's had a hand in inventing a great deal of things widely used today. Religion is pure delusion. The law of accelerating returns can be shown through data.

    Oh, so many gaps. It boggles my mind trying to explain the difference between storage space, speed, data and the actual ability to process it to achieve a result that may or may not be able to exist in the real world, let alone the social waters to navigate in the process. Plus all those things are only projections.

    I still firmly believe that nuclear power is our best source of energy next to solar (if we get some damned better energy storage solutions), but what's standing in the way isn't technology.
    First point is too vague. Don't know what you're talking about.

    Second point I agree with. I very much lament the state of places like China that are covered in egregious layers of smog when they could be using nuclear power. The health toll of coal is invisible to us because it is slow. Meltdowns don't have to happen. Nonetheless, with solar power's efficiency doubling every 2 years, it will only be roughly 15 before it can power the globe.

    I said diamond cars, as in printed, but I'm glad you brought the flying car up. They are the poster child for impractical futures. What the past futurists didn't predict is the shortage of energy. Flying cars will always be impractical as long as it's significantly cheaper to roll on the ground.
    Agree there too. Flying cars are something we have been able to do for a long time, but weren't economical. That doesn't mean much to me. I never really had my heart set on flying cars, just general technological growth. That's a sure bet (barring disaster, as always).

    The interesting thing about death, is that it will never truly exist to a conscious being, meaning simply that once it happens, we won't experience it. But it looms large because the perception of our death is what drives us as conscious beings (for instance, Kurzweil's career). Consciousness is evolution's answer to effective procurement of resources and self-replication, i.e. the avoidance of death. Death is integral to experience, and I have a hunch that the introduction of immortality to our experience could cause some very interesting psychoses.
    Death really doesn't motivate people like you imagine. I think it is more a question of dopamine levels and such. There need not ever be an end to striving, even if death and suffering disappear. An ever increasing gradient of well-being is possible and could motivate us.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Oh ok,I see what you mean now. I'm a terrible intellectual because I dont enjoy philosophical conversations or get the meaning most if the time. Its like something just happened but I have no idea what. I prefer more practical subjects.
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