User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 40

  1. #11
    WhoCares
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post

    You're thinking of the future in today's terms. The only real threat I see for future health is hackers and computer virus attacks, which is admittedly frightening, but I believe our defenses will evolve quite well. See my reply to rasofy.
    Not really, degenerative disease is not new, they have always existed, but we have only enountered them recently by living longer. I am asking, what else is exsting that we are yet to encounter because we are now living 50-100 times the lifepan we know now. We can have all the technology in the universe but if its a new problem then we havent solved it yet. Its sheer arrogance to imagine that it will all be roses and there wont be issues we'll encounter. Also arrogant to imagine that we will be able to instantly solve those problems.

    As for the gradual forgetting of things, well then what would be the point in living forever if you dont benefit from it. If I'm only going to retain the information of a century for example then I may as well die anyway, I will effectively have been reincarnated over and over as I forget who I was and remeber only who I am. Sure you can store info in a computer but you will lose facility, practical applcation of knowledge. Things like langage you havent used, musical ability with an instrument, practiced moves with the body like athletic ability and dance.

    Put into this perspective I'm not even sure living forever is something I want to do.

  2. #12
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post


    Anyways, the rest was pretty solid. :P
    You don't think so?

    I think well-being has increased and negative emotions and violence have clearly decreased, and will continue to do so. Even 1-2 centuries ago life was brutal in ways we today can't imagine.

    England, vanguard of the developed world, had a predilection for burning people, even its rulers alive or hanging them up and mutilating them for the public to see. Of particular interest is the story of King Edward II, who was tortured and killed mostly for being a bad king and gay. They stuck a red hot iron poker up his butt to kill him. And they took his gay lovers, and in front of large crowds, pulled out their intestines, cut off their genitals, cut out their hearts and beheaded them, placing the heads in highly visible places.

    Now, say what you will about some of our recent presidents, but I don't think most people believe they deserve that or would tolerate it being made a public spectacle. Life changes, usually for the better. I think and hope that our psychopathic tendencies will, in the future, disappear.

  3. #13
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Not really, degenerative disease is not new, they have always existed, but we have only enountered them recently by living longer. I am asking, what else is exsting that we are yet to encounter because we are now living 50-100 times the lifepan we know now. We can have all the technology in the universe but if its a new problem then we havent solved it yet. Its sheer arrogance to imagine that it will all be roses and there wont be issues we'll encounter. Also arrogant to imagine that we will be able to instantly solve those problems.
    The human machine is a finite thing. Once you understand it, you understand it. It's not much different from a car. If I want, I can make a car last effectively forever by simply maintaining it and replacing parts as needed. There never would come a point at which "unforeseeable" problems would arise. A car is just a car. Once you can fix it, that's it.

    If your body is perpetually identical to a 25 year old's, no new problems can arise because your body is literally a 25 year old biological body. The chances of what you're saying might... exist, I guess.... but they are kind of like, small in the sense that the LHC might create a black hole and destroy the world. That is, one in quintillions or something.

    As for the gradual forgetting of things, well then what would be the point in living forever if you dont benefit from it. If I'm only going to retain the information of a century for example then I may as well die anyway, I will effectively have been reincarnated over and over as I forget who I was and remeber only who I am. Sure you can store info in a computer but you will lose facility, practical applcation of knowledge. Things like langage you havent used, musical ability with an instrument, practiced moves with the body like athletic ability and dance.

    Put into this perspective I'm not even sure living forever is something I want to do.
    Who cares if you don't want to live forever? That's hardly the point. The point is that you can if you want. If you want to die when you are 300, you will be able to choose to do so, peacefully and in excellent health. No process of horrid deterioration necessary. You can live however much you want.

    The issue of identity is far more complex than you have even begun to describe. What will things be like when we can merge and de-merge from other people? What will things be like when I can switch my gender at will, or erase memories I don't like on the spot? Life is going to change, not a little, but so much so that you can't conceive of it right now. We are basically like bacteria talking about humans right now, compared to the intelligence and awareness of the future. It is common for us to project today's worldviews on the future, but not sensible.

  4. #14
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,932

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    You don't think so?

    I think well-being has increased and negative emotions and violence have clearly decreased, and will continue to do so. Even 1-2 centuries ago life was brutal in ways we today can't imagine.
    I disagree here. Violence, yes, but I don't think negative emotions have changed much. They are just manifesting through different and less barbaric ways.

    Depression was likely non existent when merely remaining alive was a challenge for everyone.

    Cheating is (for the most part) no longer punished with death, but nowadays it's very recurrent (I've seem statistics showing a 50% cheating rate for married people {it's hard to verify that with accuracy, I realize that}) and the emotional impact is substantial.

    Even though no one (usually) gets killed, pride, lust, and envy are vices that are still quite present in the our daily lives. I think the only way to eliminate them would be doing the equivalent of a lobotomy. People would get docile, but their substance would also disappear.


  5. #15
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    I disagree here. Violence, yes, but I don't think negative emotions have changed much. They are just manifesting through different and less barbaric ways.

    Depression was likely non existent when merely remaining alive was a challenge for everyone.

    Cheating is (for the most part) no longer punished with death, but nowadays it's very recurrent (I've seem statistics showing a 50% cheating rate for married people {it's hard to verify that with accuracy, I realize that}) and the emotional impact is substantial.

    Even though no one (usually) gets killed, pride, lust, and envy than are vices that are still quite present in the our daily lives. I think the only way to eliminate them would be doing the equivalent of a lobotomy. People would get docile, but their substance would also disappear.
    Then again, people are alive today who wouldn't normally have lived. Depression is a problem that... often transcends material abundance, but that's not at all to say it is insurmountable. In future generations of anti-depressant, nootropic, (entheogen, empathogen, entactogen), medications, depression won't be a difficult problem to solve. It is merely a question of neurochemistry.

    It would hardly be a lobotomy to modify someone's dopamine level, for instance. And your answer begs the question, do people who experience less pride, lust, and envy than others have the equivalent of lobotomies? I think it is clear that they don't, and those things can be mitigated or eliminated without losing any part of what is valuable that makes us human. They are even manageable through talk therapy, and I would hardly call that lobotomizing (and we are getting better at it, too).

    But I completely agree with you that those things are still present and we have a long way to go. It just doesn't mean we haven't made progress. Back in "the day" just 50-60 years ago, we had little understanding or empathy for people outside of what we would have then called the norm or even within it, like women, other races, homosexuals, autistics, etc. People physically fought more, parents spanked their children more, and I do think people were just as depressed, but perhaps it wasn't recognized or was poorly treated. People depended on harmful chemicals to a greater degree. It was common, after all, to take things like laudenum, and coke literally did have COKE in it lol. Alcoholic husbands coming home and beating their wives was practically a staple of shared experience.

    Make no mistake, people used to be angry, bigoted, psychotic assholes. We have an equal tendency project the present on the past as we do the future. Things used to SUCK in a way we really can't imagine today. It's just that back then it was normal so people didn't notice like we would today.

    As for your comment on marriage, personally I don't think that has much to say, but I do think marriage is on the decline. Back when people died more often earlier in life, marriage was easier to keep together longer. Now that 40 is the new 20, people who get married at 22 can wake up 18 years later and realize they have tons of time ahead of them and to commit to one person for all that time is almost nonsensical. This trend will only continue.

    Edit: also, marriage is losing its practical basis. Whereas before it combined 2 people's wealth and aspired to produce children who could help with the family work, now it is more of a financial burden to have kids at least, and most people don't desperately need to combine wealth with others. To do so would be gauche at this point anyway.

    Edit 2: I believe depression has only come majorly on the scene now because people used to have actual things to be upset about, whereas now you can be unhappy for what appears to be no reason. Misery was pretty widespread, though, back in the day, more so than now. Read some Dickens or Joyce if ya need a reminder

  6. #16
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    Some people are personally opposed to the idea of an afterlife simply on the basis that it would be uncomfortable/boring to them if they lived eternally.

    I think the only solution to the anxiety that comes with facing mortality is to appreciate the present moment.

  7. #17
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Some people are personally opposed to the idea of an afterlife simply on the basis that it would be uncomfortable/boring to them if they lived eternally.
    That's because they project their present feelings and state of mind into eternity. If they were to arrive in heaven and heaven were as good as it could be, their worries about a boring eternity would evaporate faster than a microscopic black hole created by the LHC.

    We are trapped within a sort of Darwinian malaise at this point in history, but won't always be. Ever take drugs? The kinds of euphoria you can experience from LSD and mushrooms, for example, are utterly inconceivable to the drug naive mind, even to people who have taken them before. States of such heavenly bliss and love are possible and may one day become common, and people will look back on us in the present day as horribly depressed psychopaths.

    I think the only solution to the anxiety that comes with facing mortality is to appreciate the present moment.
    As someone who has spent years practicing meditation and studying Buddhism and other forms of nonduality, I can safely say, the present moment alone sucks. There's more nuance to a statement like that than people think, but that doesn't stop a boatload of hype over it caused by bastardized and mangled interpretations of Eckhart Tolle.

    Appreciating the present moment requires resolution in the past and future. It does not have to do with simply focusing on physical sensory perception. I've been there, done that, and it is lame.

    Rather, appreciation of the present moment comes from doing what makes you happy right now instead of suffering for one outcome or another. Paradoxically, but not really, what makes us happy in the present involves planning for the future. Like with me, my biggest fascination IS the future. I love reading about it and imagining it, reading science fiction, and teaching myself things like philosophy so I will know them in the future. Working toward a goal is enjoyable, if you like the goal and you don't push yourself too hard.

    This, however, has nothing to do with the anxiety facing mortality, except for the fact that you are now able to see it for what it is and realize that something needs to be done about it. This is what has compelled generations of people to cure diseases and work for more freedoms and stuff like that, stuff that makes the future better.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Socionics
    ILI
    Posts
    1,838

    Default

    Another thing you might want to consider is what happens if you give people immortality. Some people carefully plan out and self-restrain their lives so that they can live out the rest of their days being happy, but what happens when you take away the rest of their days? What if they have an infinite lifespan that they can do anything with? They can do absolutely anything without having to worry about screwing up their life, as they can just start again at the ripe age of 170 in some other land. Suddenly you have a people that simply do things out of momentary pleasure rather than building something worthwhile under the short time frame that is a lifespan. Another thing to consider would be imprisonment for those who commit crimes and are immortal. If progressive movements today succeed, the death penalty will be considered cruel and unusual punishment, and that would mean that life in prison would literally mean stacking people in jail forever and having to build behemoth sized maximum security prisons the size of planets eventually.

    And, even more grotesquely in this capitalistic society, which company is going to control infinite lifespans, and how much per month or year will it be?

  9. #19
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Another thing you might want to consider is what happens if you give people immortality. Some people carefully plan out and self-restrain their lives so that they can live out the rest of their days being happy, but what happens when you take away the rest of their days? What if they have an infinite lifespan that they can do anything with? They can do absolutely anything without having to worry about screwing up their life, as they can just start again at the ripe age of 170 in some other land. Suddenly you have a people that simply do things out of momentary pleasure rather than building something worthwhile under the short time frame that is a lifespan.
    I don't think much can be said about how people would act. I don't think it would increase impulsiveness either. People are already extremely impulsive. I think a lot of that actually comes from knowing they are going to die anyway, and whatever they build will be annihilated by death. If they knew their efforts would continue to last decades and centuries, they might have less of a problem with undertaking pursuits that could take, well, decades or centuries.

    Personally, I'd love to read all the works of Shakespeare, but it's too low on the list of priorities to worry about now. If I had infinite time, I'd be like sweeeeeeet, I'm gonna spend the next 10 years studying Shakespeare!


    Another thing to consider would be imprisonment for those who commit crimes and are immortal. If progressive movements today succeed, the death penalty will be considered cruel and unusual punishment, and that would mean that life in prison would literally mean stacking people in jail forever and having to build behemoth sized maximum security prisons the size of planets eventually.
    The obvious answer is that you stop making up arbitrary prison terms and you simply let people out when they have been reformed. I am certain that we will have better ways of being able to tell if that has occurred in the future. Also, it is possible to imprison people to varying degrees. Some people just have ankle monitors now. That's something they didn't have before. Our capacities in that regard will also expand. Not a major problem.

    And, even more grotesquely in this capitalistic society, which company is going to control infinite lifespans, and how much per month or year will it be?
    Who knows, but that's still better than the alternative. I think that is a somewhat paranoid and unrealistic scenario, though. Companies created cures for cancer and those cost money, but as time goes on they get cheaper and finally they become free and ubiquitous (look at all the diseases we have eradicated). I sincerely doubt that just ONE company will come up with immortality, and if it does, monopolize it forever. That's absurdly unlikely.

  10. #20
    WhoCares
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    The human machine is a finite thing. Once you understand it, you understand it. It's not much different from a car. If I want, I can make a car last effectively forever by simply maintaining it and replacing parts as needed. There never would come a point at which "unforeseeable" problems would arise. A car is just a car. Once you can fix it, that's it.
    But the human body is not a car, it's not technology human's created and therefore implictly understand every single part of it and how all of that interrelates with the rest. Our understanding of the human organism is at best, rudimentary. We can slice and dice the body with varying results and pump it full of drugs with highly variable results, and suddenly we think we are masters of it. The video you posted even mentions that undertstanding just metabolism alone is something presently beyond our grasp. What makes you think that in 10 or 20yrs time we will have such a complete understanding of this extremely complex machine that we can safely tamper with it?

    It's not the first time humans have declared themselves masters of the universe and created more problems with their interference than they solved. It certainly will not be the last time that nature will teach us just how little we know regardless of how large our ego's may be.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    If your body is perpetually identical to a 25 year old's, no new problems can arise because your body is literally a 25 year old biological body. The chances of what you're saying might... exist, I guess.... but they are kind of like, small in the sense that the LHC might create a black hole and destroy the world.
    And there has never been a 25yr old in history that hasn't had a problem with their body? Things with a very small probability of occuring have never occured? The more complex the system the more chaotic it becomes. Unexpected results do happen all the time, things we cannot forsee come up. Even in a system as basic as a large computer network throws up bugs no-one predicted. You are talking about one of the most complex machines ever created and yet you are convinced that our pitiful level of knowledge will ensure that nothing new will result.

    Such utopian views of technology and it's virtues are just as one eyed as a religious zealot convinced God is going to rescue the world. Every post here bringing up possibilities for discussion is whitewashed with your 'but technology will change everything' optimism. It seems to lack balance and is unconvincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Who cares if you don't want to live forever? That's hardly the point.
    It might not be a point you are interested in but it is a point that will interest a great number of people. You're beloved scientist is looking for money for research, he's trying to drum up interest in a concept that supposedly has been the holy grail of existence, but where is the support for it? I will not be the only person to ever ask the question Is this even a desirable outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    The issue of identity is far more complex than you have even begun to describe. What will things be like when we can merge and de-merge from other people? What will things be like when I can switch my gender at will, or erase memories I don't like on the spot? Life is going to change, not a little, but so much so that you can't conceive of it right now. We are basically like bacteria talking about humans right now, compared to the intelligence and awareness of the future. It is common for us to project today's worldviews on the future, but not sensible.
    And it's common for drug fuelled visions to create interesting reads either in publication or on the internet. My mission isn't to shoot down the vision but to question it, and it's value to me and humanity at large. Who says I even want my identity merged, or to change my gender or erase memories at will. Those are all things which clearly you find desirable but not everyone is the same. We could (given enough technological advancements and time) colonise Mars. But whether we should I think is the more interesting question to be asking.

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] NTs in love, relationships, how do you rationalize love? How do you handle feelings?
    By Brian2626 in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 01-27-2012, 11:59 PM
  2. [NT] How do you (rationally) view Brazil?
    By braziljoe in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 10-07-2009, 04:01 PM
  3. [NT] Do you think about death often?
    By yenom in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 06-02-2009, 06:11 PM
  4. [MBTItm] Rationals over there, how do you behave when you fall in love?
    By kathara in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 08-05-2008, 11:12 PM
  5. [NT] NT rationals, a question! What do you think?
    By Viva_Hate in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-06-2008, 07:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO