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View Poll Results: What is the shape of the cosmos?

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  • 1. Open and Infinite (Saddle - Negative curvature)

    3 42.86%
  • 2. Finite and Closed (Sphere - Positive curvature)

    0 0%
  • 3. Digital and Flat (Torus - No curvature)

    2 28.57%
  • 4. Multi-directional and Eternal (Toroid - Revolving Curvature)

    2 28.57%
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  1. #1
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    Default Shape of the Cosmos ~ Understanding the Architectures of our Universe

    The universe might be finite in spatial extend but unbounded, an overall topology of a closed surface, spherical or a donut (torus) in shape. Which topology is correct depends on the average curvature of space. Positive curvature is a sphere, flat curvature is a torus, and negative curvature is a saddle with infinite possible topologies. A spatially infinite universe cannot be a self-contained system, but rather is part of a larger system taking in information from boundaries infinitely far away, the space outside being explicable by what comes in from the world beyond the boundary.

    The different possibilities as to the shape of the cosmos:
    1. Open and Infinite (Saddle - Negative curvature)
    2. Finite and Closed (Sphere - Positive curvature)
    3. Digital and Flat (Torus - No curvature)
    4. Multi-directional and Eternal (Toroid - Revolving Curvature)


    Ventrilo conversation on this subject that I got permission to post:
    RaptorWizard: case closed, anyway, i was reading about different geometries for our cosmos yesterday
    RaptorWizard: do we have a finite or infinite, closed or open, negatively curved saddle, positively curved sphere, or flat torus
    RaptorWizard: shapes for the universe
    RaptorWizard: the negative saddle to me looked the most interesting
    RaptorWizard: it opens up many more variables and is open to other spaces outside this one
    RaptorWizard: thoughts?
    superunknown: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_torus
    superunknown: i just remembered i never finished the video on turning spheres inside out
    superunknown: do you think the universe is closed or open?
    RaptorWizard: that whirling graphic is interesting
    superunknown: yeah
    RaptorWizard: i want it to be open, and i have faith it may be, but the evidence amy later say its closed
    RaptorWizard: i should make a thread on that actually; how is our universe shaped
    superunknown: yes, you should
    RaptorWizard: i guess one piece of evidence in favor of istj over istp for you is your focus on well, evidence - mingularity, istp goes by logic even if there could be counter-logical discoveries made
    RaptorWizard: he doesnt want the universe to have a metaphorical shape for instance, because its too inconsistent
    RaptorWizard: from a rational standpoint
    RaptorWizard: anyway, just my opinion, ill get to that thread
    superunknown: yeah, i really like the concept of irrational functions
    superunknown: rational functions are tethered
    superunknown: unaccommodating
    superunknown: though i may be that irl, my unconscious self
    RaptorWizard: Shape of the Cosmos - is that a good title, or is there an improvement
    RaptorWizard: and poll options: negative, positive, flat
    RaptorWizard: negative is infinite, positive is closed, and flat - is that the torus?
    superunknown: i'm not sure about the flat/torus one
    RaptorWizard: how would a flat universe be shaped
    superunknown: reading now
    superunknown: i wasn't doubting you, i was saying i personally don't know, fyi
    RaptorWizard: i dont know either, why i asked - more information is needed
    superunknown: ah. yeah, reading now
    RaptorWizard: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/weird...rse-8C11133381
    RaptorWizard: ^ supposed evidence for the saddle
    superunknown: a flat universe means theroretical parallel can be drawn through any point in space, space doesn't "curve" like einstein predicts
    superunknown: I don't know if I buy literal curvature of space
    superunknown: i think the universe is flat and digital
    RaptorWizard: perhaps so, could negative curvature be a metaphor (and if it is, what kind of metaphor)
    superunknown: i think the saddle shaped universe is manifest in the torus
    superunknown: http://stanwagon.com/wagon/Misc/HTML...andshake_8.gif
    superunknown: the middle piece is like a chunk taken out of the inner wall of a torus
    RaptorWizard: hmm, good point, the torus kind of mixes the flat/digital with the saddle
    RaptorWizard: thx, saved the image
    superunknown: i know for a while i liked the concept of an eternal, closed universe
    superunknown: in constant flux
    superunknown: rehashing itself over and over
    RaptorWizard: i think thats how nietzsche saw it
    superunknown: makes sense, given his conclusions
    RaptorWizard: eternal recurrence in never ending cycles
    superunknown: i think that's how eastern religions see it also
    superunknown: perpetual rebirth
    RaptorWizard: is there a way to mix the rebirth, the saddle, and the flat with the torus (or something else)?
    superunknown: one sec, i saw a cool pic
    superunknown: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...oward_Boom.jpg
    RaptorWizard: ^ that may be the answer
    superunknown: that's what i thought, for a while
    superunknown: condensing to maximum density, exploding, condensing, etc
    RaptorWizard: it whirls around in cycles, it can move forever, it has a closed system that can be calculated, it has the saddle source for the bang
    superunknown: or that idea of a new universe being born every time a black hole is created
    superunknown: yeah
    superunknown: it makes a bit of intuitive sense, for a system to work that way
    RaptorWizard: whats this design called
    superunknown: doughnut theory of the universe
    RaptorWizard: i think ill argue for that one, but changes can be made along the way if new things emerge
    superunknown: i will argue for a similar concept, only flat
    RaptorWizard: how would flat donut work
    superunknown: i really dislike the concept of geometry being the purest form of reality
    RaptorWizard: literal donut?
    superunknown: yeah, something like that
    superunknown: it'd be like a radial burst from a centralized location
    RaptorWizard: what makes geometry incomplete (it could be, why so)
    RaptorWizard: the nexus of size
    superunknown: yeah. but what exists between sizes?
    superunknown: i remember thinking....
    RaptorWizard: bathroom
    superunknown: ya, brb
    RaptorWizard: im posting this conversation into the thread if thats okay
    superunknown: yeah, that's cool
    superunknown: i was thinking about the wave/particle problem in quantum mechanics
    superunknown: i can't remember the thought i had about it, but it was cool...
    'TheStarchDefenders' has joined the chat.
    RaptorWizard: how does contingency (like in QM) connect with the shape of the cosmos?
    superunknown: i have a feeling we simple aren't equipped to probe that level of existence accurately yet
    superunknown: hello starch
    RaptorWizard: true, QM may be seemingly contingent just because we cant see the causes behind it
    superunknown: that, or there is a duality to nature that is irreconcilable
    superunknown: but that's been said a dozen times over in science
    superunknown: i have faith we will figure it out
    Mane: gloves
    Mane: the answer is gloves
    Mane: sort of
    superunknown: metaphorical gloves?
    Mane: it's like the thing they have in labs where the gloves are within the walls of a glass box
    Mane: to handle materials you can't touch
    superunknown: ah, yeah, i remember this
    Mane: we need to use the space of our universe like gloves
    superunknown: i know the theory of quantum uncertainty has been disproven with a thought experiment
    Mane: what thought experiment?
    superunknown: something involving two people with boxes that will randomly generate a red or blue cube inside?
    superunknown: it's been a while since i read it...
    Mane: if we had that - we could "feel" what is outside of our universe, we could possibly even grab something which isn't part of our membrane and manipulate it, possibly even build a probe of sort
    RaptorWizard: mane, i want permission to post this entire discussion in a thread, is that okay?
    superunknown: maybe the upcoming quantum age will give it to us
    RaptorWizard: when do you foresee the QM age coming
    Mane: sure
    Mane: didn't the QM age start when the universe emerged?
    Mane: or you mean in terms of our capacity to manipulate?
    Mane: i suppose the stone age started when we manipulated stone..
    superunknown: yes, like the atomic age, iron age, etc
    superunknown: i think around 2025 is when it's gonna be "mainstream" technology
    superunknown: quantum watches, cell phones
    Mane: i think we've already had quantum watches
    Mane: maybe i am wrong on that one...
    superunknown: it'd be interesting if we did, but i haven't heard of it
    Mane: what is the watch that they placed on setalites to test the theory of relatively?
    superunknown: i know of only one commercially available quantum computer, made by D-Wave
    superunknown: atomic clock
    Mane: oh right
    superunknown: my watch syncs with an atomic clock in georgia daily
    Mane: well you have variations of quantum computing that are disputable
    Mane: like the google thingy
    RaptorWizard: Shape of the Cosmos ~ Understanding the Architectures of our Universe - hows that for a full title
    superunknown: i like it
    Mane: my watch syncs with the mind of a hippy thinking what time it feels like
    superunknown: i didn't hear about that, mane
    superunknown: lol
    Mane: their where articles over it all over awhile ago
    Mane: wired, popsci... those sort of sites
    superunknown: yeah
    Mane: i do remember D-wave claiming it is not a real quantum computer
    superunknown: darn
    Mane: but i wasn't sure if its nitpicking about not fitting for a specific theory of how quantum computation should work, or if it's actually in a sense of not having the properties of a quantum computer
    Mane: i think the google thing used a more basic binary state system or something like that?
    Mane: not sure
    Mane: its being awhile ago
    RaptorWizard: http://howardbloom.net/the-god-probl...-bagel-theory/ - Big Bagel Theory
    superunknown: i'm not sure, but this year, NASA and Google both partnered with D-Wave to study what they're doing right with their computers
    superunknown: Prior to announcing this partnership, NASA, Google, and Universities Space Research Association put a D-Wave computer through a series of benchmark and acceptance tests which it passed.[6] Independent researchers found that D-Wave's computers can solve s
    superunknown: solve some problems as much as 3,600 times faster than particular software packages running on digital computers.
    superunknown: there's more though, still reading
    Mane: i think initially it's going to be like an added hardware piece you shove in server clusters
    superunknown: yeah, for weird problems
    Mane: not really weird problems
    superunknown: i guess i meant nuanced
    Mane: i heard that search sorting algorithms can work better in quantum algorithms.
    Mane: that's not that weird is it? its one of the most common problems we have to solve
    RaptorWizard: The different possibilities as to the shape of the cosmos:
    RaptorWizard: 1. Open and Infinite (Saddle - Negative curvature)
    superunknown: no, not weird
    RaptorWizard: 2. Finite and Closed (Sphere - Positive curvature)
    RaptorWizard: 3. Digital and Flat (Torus - No curvature)
    RaptorWizard: Multi-directional and Eternal (Toroid - Revolving Curvature)
    RaptorWizard: ^ 4
    RaptorWizard: are those good poll options
    superunknown: yes, i think so
    RaptorWizard: cool, ill post the thread now
    Mane: wait wasn't it the other way around
    Mane: problems with small data sets but large processing run times
    Mane: so not search algorithms...
    Mane: ok i am clearly not remembering this right
    RaptorWizard: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-universe.html

  2. #2
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    I do believe the universe is self-dependent and its contents discrete. I do not like the concept of spatial curvature because I am a sensor and loathe the concept of existence without substance. Einstein can kick rocks.

    But what fills the gaps?

  3. #3
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    Bloom Toroidal Model (Donut Theory) of the Universe


    By largely eliminating the radiation from stars and our own galaxy, the CMB of the universe appears more concentrated (intense) across one plane of the universe than all others. This concentration of CMB forms a straight line in the universe and may indicate a compact, finite universe.[n 1]

    Tegmark proposes his explanation, to his co-written study, that the universe is finite - the amount of radiation in one area is limited to and thus indicative of the size of the area in that direction. Where radiation exceeds its quota for the size of the plane seen, the universe has overflowed in that direction creating a plane in other directions. The perpendicular to the direction of the plane may thereby have created an invisible loop of a doughnut, or torus. Therefore, Tegmark suggests a torus geometry is the most probable shape consistent to his analysis of WMAP CMB maps.[1][5]

    Note, however, such a self-consistent entity does not negate the possibility of an infinite universe or alternatively finite super-universe which is capable of containing such an entity. A parallel can be made to the shape of the bulk of the Milky Way in the night sky.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughnu...f_the_universe
    @Infinite Bubble I think this thread fits with your username and interests quite nicely - and I'm looking forward to your feedback from my comment in the universe and other nonsense thread.

  4. #4
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    I understood that the latest fine measurement of the background radiation has shown that the universe is flat.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I understood that the latest fine measurement of the background radiation has shown that the universe is flat.
    That's what people used to say about Planet Earth, but we now know it's a hollow sphere. Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.
    Remember.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I do believe the universe is self-dependent and its contents discrete. I do not like the concept of spatial curvature because I am a sensor and loathe the concept of existence without substance. Einstein can kick rocks.

    But what fills the gaps?
    Nikola Tesla seems to hold similar views to yourself, as quoted below:

    “It might be inferred that I am alluding to the curvature of space supposed to exist according to the teachings of relativity, but nothing could be further from my mind. I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. It might as well be said that God has properties. He has not, but only attributes and these are of our own making. Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved, is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view.“
    and
    The theory wraps all these errors and fallacies and clothes them in magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king. Its exponents are very brilliant men, but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists. Not a single one of the relativity propositions has been proved.”
    http://aetherforce.com/electrical-en...rs-relativity/

    Now for my own thoughts, I think that space can be curved, at least from a large-scale perspective as to its shape, but on smaller levels (like gravity) you and Tesla may be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I understood that the latest fine measurement of the background radiation has shown that the universe is flat.
    Yes, but different people doing different measurements in different ways each seem to report different results. You can always question the competence of the people making these so called observations and giving us "evidence".

    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    That's what people used to say about Planet Earth, but we now know it's a hollow sphere. Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.
    Remember.
    I actually agree very much with your quote here. One thing to note in expansion is that not only is our Earth a sphere, but there is a whole spectrum of space surrounding it; perhaps the same could be said of our universe and the realms beyond.

  7. #7
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    I am glad to have understanding as such an esteemed individual as Nikolai Tesla. He is terrifyingly true, the chief concern of man throughout history is his reluctance to cast aside the notion that something can act on nothing and vice versa. To state that space has curvature is exactly this, a sublimation away from reason and towards our primitive origins.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I am glad to have understanding as such an esteemed individual as Nikolai Tesla. He is terrifyingly true, the chief concern of man throughout history is his reluctance to cast aside the notion that something can act on nothing and vice versa. To state that space has curvature is exactly this, a sublimation away from reason and towards our primitive origins.
    It's true that gravity is a curve in space/time, while the fine measurement of the background radiation from the big bang shows the entire universe is flat.

    This is an extraordinary thing to discover because we can now predict the future of the universe.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It's true that gravity is a curve in space/time, while the fine measurement of the background radiation from the big bang shows the entire universe is flat.

    This is an extraordinary thing to discover because we can now predict the future of the universe.
    I think it is true that geometric calculations can be made to predict the force of gravity, but I don't believe space is literally bending, as Einstein thought. This is why he refused to accept quantum effects, his god lied in the perfection of geometry.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I think it is true that geometric calculations can be made to predict the force of gravity, but I don't believe space is literally bending, as Einstein thought. This is why he refused to accept quantum effects, his god lied in the perfection of geometry.
    We have just completed measurements of light from the most distant galaxies.

    We measured this light to see if space consisted of discrete quanta.

    And it turns out that space is not made of discrete quanta. This may have made Albert happy.

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