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  1. #31
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    In an ideal world we would clumsily climb up the Kardashev scale to the point where we no longer need to comply with scientific principles. We are currently at 0.73 when the above would likely be achievable at 4 or 5 (or perhaps even 6.) The question is whether we can make it to 1 or not before we go extinct. We best maintain our interest in space.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    In an ideal world we would clumsily climb up the Kardashev scale to the point where we no longer need to comply with scientific principles. We are currently at 0.73 when the above would likely be achievable at 4 or 5 (or perhaps even 6.) The question is whether we can make it to 1 or not before we go extinct. We best maintain our interest in space.
    Yes well that is the problem. Whether we can get past ourselves.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Bubble View Post
    Yes well that is the problem. Whether we can get past ourselves.
    We don't need to get over ourselves per se. That is a battle for much later (if at all). We just need to find a way for space travel to appeal to our primal desires and indulgences. That is why I support space tourism - let the id of the ruling classes feed the engines which hopefully would prevent a collapse of humanity's carrying capacity. When all the resources of the solar system are in our grasp is when we should stop to reflect as a species. At least that is my view.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    In an ideal world we would clumsily climb up the Kardashev scale to the point where we no longer need to comply with scientific principles. We are currently at 0.73 when the above would likely be achievable at 4 or 5 (or perhaps even 6.) The question is whether we can make it to 1 or not before we go extinct. We best maintain our interest in space.
    "Physics is the most fundamental, and least significant, of the sciences." - Ken Wilber
    "The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence." - Nikola Tesla

    The point is that we start from the physics to build ourselves up, but at higher levels of development, mundane science will vanish as we connect with higher forces.
    I think that once we have a theory of everything along with greater technologies, then we can begin empirical explorations of inner space and spiritual worlds.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    "Physics is the most fundamental, and least significant, of the sciences." - Ken Wilber
    "The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence." - Nikola Tesla

    The point is that we start from the physics to build ourselves up, but at higher levels of development, mundane science will vanish as we connect with higher forces.
    I think that once we have a theory of everything along with greater technologies, then we can begin empirical explorations of inner space and spiritual worlds.
    This is all known to me. The question is how? Everything is subservient to laws and principles from the quantum level up (though whether quantum particles are uncaused causers remains to be seen) and we are bound by that system. We are trapped in the box and we must somehow use tools also trapped in the box to somehow escape from the box which is seemingly locked from the outside. If it is possible then I reckon it would take unfathomable amounts of power and knowledge born only from experimental data which in turn required unfathomable amounts of resources.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    This is all known to me. The question is how? Everything is subservient to laws and principles from the quantum level up (though whether quantum particles are uncaused causers remains to be seen) and we are bound by that system. We are trapped in the box and we must somehow use tools also trapped in the box to somehow escape from the box which is seemingly locked from the outside. If it is possible then I reckon it would take unfathomable amounts of power and knowledge born only from experimental data which in turn required unfathomable amounts of resources.
    I guess we can approach this problem metaphorically, from the idea of computer programs and how they evolve.
    Perhaps computers can experience dreams, see the future, have a will to life, and so forth.
    They can even learn from experience, integrate it all and become wiser.
    Then there's even theories on how sufficiently advanced computers would be able to take over the world, even though they originally were our subjects.
    Computers could potentially learn to perceive their surroundings outside the limited cybserspace of their own programming.
    Ultimately, we don't really know what's within our limits, or what limits can be transcended. The wonders of yesterday are today common occurences.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    I guess we can approach this problem metaphorically, from the idea of computer programs and how they evolve.
    Perhaps computers can experience dreams, see the future, have a will to life, and so forth.
    They can even learn from experience, integrate it all and become wiser.
    Then there's even theories on how sufficiently advanced computers would be able to take over the world, even though they originally were our subjects.
    Computers could potentially learn to perceive their surroundings outside the limited cybserspace of their own programming.
    Ultimately, we don't really know what's within our limits, or what limits can be transcended. The wonders of yesterday are today common occurences.
    I am talking about the death of limitations and process in a state where science no longer needs to be obeyed. Essentially whatever you want to occur happens. Practical godhood and the literal death of existentialism and nihilism. No implications or implementation issues. However you would need to invent such a state from objects which both have limitations and require process. In other words: can a mortal create a god?

    I am unsure how metaphor alone would achieve such a feat unless it allowed you to become a ghost and enter an alternate reality without laws. The only method I see is for a suitably advanced civilisation to strip-mine part of if not the whole universe in the hope they can either discover a method or be sufficiently educated in order to innovate a way.

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    10 years from now, people will have more fat and be more naked.

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    In 5 hours I will be under a blanket.

    For I have seen the future.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicolita View Post
    In 5 hours I will be under a blanket.

    For I have seen the future.
    "And as the great blanket sleeps in all of us, we shall in turn sleep in it."

    From the Terratus Liberatum light pamphlet, of the Cult of Blanket, circa 3256 after the great terramorph disaster.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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