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  1. #111
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Christianity is not Christianity without Christ, I dont even mean the more obscurantist or theologically mired sense of discussions surrounding predestination, election, salvation, sacrifice and atonement (or at-one-ment) that go on, readings of the epistles and other post-Christ, emerging Christianity, passages in the bible are very similar to other philosophical and spiritual currents from the time, Platonism, Epicureanism, Stoicism.

    Christ is what sets it all apart, even Hasidics and other parallels within the Hebrews didnt come close to the way in which he interpreted the tradition he was born into and revived in many ways before breaking with, at least in some important respects.
    My comment is in regards to a particular member saying that the epistles are "pretty worthless" if we cannot assume they are entirely historically true [and, in his words, a "real Christ"].

    My point is that I don't think they are "pretty worthless." The example of Christ has value regardless of any historicity.

    I'm just kind of surprised at how dififcult it is for you and others to find value in things that you can't justify without having to make them a "historical fact" of sorts. That seems like a failure of imagination to me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My comment is in regards to a particular member saying that the epistles are "pretty worthless" if we cannot assume they are entirely historically true [and, in his words, a "real Christ"].

    My point is that I don't think they are "pretty worthless." The example of Christ has value regardless of any historicity.

    I'm just kind of surprised at how dififcult it is for you and others to find value in things that you can't justify without having to make them a "historical fact" of sorts. That seems like a failure of imagination to me.


    No failure of imagination, just without Christ they are equivocal to those other things I mentioned, I dont consider them worthless, they were major philosophical and spiritual currents which interacted and even informed Christianity but with Christ there is no Christianity or it is changed so much as to not be correctly labelled as such.

    There's plenty of examples of people dying for what they believed in or being hunted down for it, although there's only one resurrection.

  3. #113
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's only true for the moralistic tales and advice spread around the bible. Most of the new testament revolves around the actual death and resurrection of Christ. The epistles are pretty much worthless without a real Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Christianity is worthless without a real Christ.

    Jesus Christ did not write anything himself and there is a lot of his ministry as recorded by others which suggests that he was a pretty orthodox Jew intent upon transforming scriptural truths into a lived reality again, all the business of leaving the dead to the dead, sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath and repeatedly outwitting the "athiests" and scriptural authorities of the day when they attempted to ambush him with it.
    You are both correct about there being no Christianity apart from Christ. People will differ, however, on what it means to say Christ is "real", largely because Jesus didn't leave a written record, and everything we know about him is at best second- and third-hand. Lark writes that he appears to have been "about tradition more than scripture". Relatively, perhaps, but my impression is that Jesus was in many ways an iconoclast, standing the customs of his day on their head by reaching out to marginalized groups, associating freely with women, gentiles, tax collectors, etc. But to say this is to claim no more than that the elephant has a trunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There's plenty of examples of people dying for what they believed in or being hunted down for it, although there's only one resurrection.
    Even that is interpreted metaphorically by some.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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