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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    And those questions will never be definitively, objectively answered, so I don't bother putting how open I am on a scale of 1-10. It's a toggle switch. Open or not open.
    Lol okay. Then I guess by that logic I'm "open".

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    And those questions will never be definitively, objectively answered, so I don't bother putting how open I am on a scale of 1-10. It's a toggle switch. Open or not open.
    Quantum Mechanics is based on statistics. And statistics tells us how likely something is on a scale of 1-10.

    And Quantum Mechanics is unbelievably mind numbingly accurate. So statistics is accurate beyond our imaginations.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Quantum Mechanics is based on statistics. And statistics tells us how likely something is on a scale of 1-10.

    And Quantum Mechanics is unbelievably mind numbingly accurate. So statistics is accurate beyond our imaginations.
    QM is not based on statistics. Stats form part of QM, not the basis of QM.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #104
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Ok, she said it quietly. She's allowed her free speech. It's not like she made a scene and threatened to kill someone.
    Yes, this lady was well within her rights to say what she said and to behave as she did. We all have the right to be wrong, and to act on it as well, provided we don't harm others in the process. Offending a few scientists who I am sure can take it does not constitute "harm".

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't think that one can cite their religious beliefs as an excuse for refuting any scientific fact they so well please. I certainly don't give a crap how allegedly irreverent it is for someone to state such a scientific fact. If informing someone that the moon reflects light from the sun is an attempt to change someone's world view, then so is educating a child about essentially any part of science..
    Any time we try to replace ignorance with knowledge, we are likely to change someone's world view. This applies not only to scientific knowledge, but just as much in more subjective areas, as when we encourage understanding of those unlike us, or recognition of an addiction, or even when preachers urge the faithful to repent and live a more holy and spiritual life. All of this requires a change in world view; indeed, it depends on it. It is not a sign of strength, or intelligence, or character, or any good quality to be able to cling to the same unchanged world view for one's entire life.

    Quote Originally Posted by En Gallop View Post
    The idea of taking the Bible seriously as a guide to understanding the objective world, is something I think was almost certainly unintended by the original thinkers. It isn't meant as a scientific or historical textbook, but as a set of ideas that attempt to give people's lives a meaning and purpose, and make them feel significant in the grand scheme of things.
    Yes. Understanding the Bible largely as metaphor does not degrade it in any way, but rather unlocks its true value and purpose. We don't evaluate Aesop's Fables on the basis of whether there was an actual tortoise and hare having a footrace.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #105
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We don't evaluate Aesop's Fables on the basis of whether there was an actual tortoise and hare having a footrace.
    Point! +1
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Yes. Understanding the Bible largely as metaphor does not degrade it in any way, but rather unlocks its true value and purpose. We don't evaluate Aesop's Fables on the basis of whether there was an actual tortoise and hare having a footrace.
    That's only true for the moralistic tales and advice spread around the bible. Most of the new testament revolves around the actual death and resurrection of Christ. The epistles are pretty much worthless without a real Christ.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    The epistles are pretty much worthless without a real Christ.
    It's really sad to me that you believe that. "pretty much worthless" -- seriously??
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's only true for the moralistic tales and advice spread around the bible. Most of the new testament revolves around the actual death and resurrection of Christ. The epistles are pretty much worthless without a real Christ.
    Christianity is worthless without a real Christ.

    Jesus Christ did not write anything himself and there is a lot of his ministry as recorded by others which suggests that he was a pretty orthodox Jew intent upon transforming scriptural truths into a lived reality again, all the business of leaving the dead to the dead, sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath and repeatedly outwitting the "athiests" and scriptural authorities of the day when they attempted to ambush him with it.

    Which, sorry to just further confuse the f**k out of the thread (I'm not really but I want to maintain a sembalence of good humour with you other believers, I'm serious Beorn, well, my word anyway), is ample evidence that Jesus was about tradition more than scripture, solo scripture is an error which could only really play out in the way it has with the crisis the so called "higher criticism" of the bible has caused amongst "bible Christians" and the emergence of things such as creationism.

    That said, I've got to say that I agree that this guys presentation in this context just appears like collosal trolling, I more than suspect that this thread and the lion share of responses from some quarters in it are trolling too btw.

    There's a terrible, terrible tendency among a lot of the neo-athiests, and the rest of the science side of the science vs. religion dichotomy thinkers, to seek out and cause acrimony, seizing upon the very least evidence of the same as examples of their "worst expectations", like with a lot of other instances and as a good example of what trolling actually is its all about baiting people into a certain response. It adds nothing to anything at all. Its a game and idle amusement.

    So he's either been blundering in his presentation or succeeded in provoking some very easily provoked people, neither of those are accomplishments and they reflect poorly upon him, I mean I presume the guy has had an education and been schooled and should have been able to avoid either scenario?

  9. #109
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's really sad to me that you believe that. "pretty much worthless" -- seriously??
    Sad?

    I'm really confused. If it's all metaphorical then you can take from it what you want and give whatever meaning to it that you want. Yet, if I don't attribute meaning to it you're going to judge that as sad?


    My favorite verses are from the end of Romans 8:

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
    36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
    37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
    38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
    39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    This verse is meaningless if it Christ didn't die and resurrect.

    I've been reading Athanasius lately who lived while there was still great persecution and he records how women and children were bravely and courageously facing death for their faith. While bravery is admirable on it's own when combined with stupidity or belief in something false it becomes something of scorn pretty quickly. I mean, look at all the stupid Ned Stark memes. If these people let their children die for a lie then they were fools of the highest order.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's really sad to me that you believe that. "pretty much worthless" -- seriously??
    Christianity is not Christianity without Christ, I dont even mean the more obscurantist or theologically mired sense of discussions surrounding predestination, election, salvation, sacrifice and atonement (or at-one-ment) that go on, readings of the epistles and other post-Christ, emerging Christianity, passages in the bible are very similar to other philosophical and spiritual currents from the time, Platonism, Epicureanism, Stoicism.

    Christ is what sets it all apart, even Hasidics and other parallels within the Hebrews didnt come close to the way in which he interpreted the tradition he was born into and revived in many ways before breaking with, at least in some important respects.

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