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  1. #11
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    Don't worry about being circular around me, circular reasoning is something I excel at. You say we need to be contained to work out our problems (I believe Gene Roddenberry had a similar view) rather than venturing off into space but I do not believe that is possible with the limited resources or possible in humanity's nature. Humanity has always moved to new environments when the old ones do not meet their needs rather than going into deep introspection and living without these needs in the pursuit of overcoming whichever problems plague their society. The question I have: What if the new environment and the new resources are the only solution? I am unsure how much science can be advanced from Earth, for one we had to build the Hubble Telescope in space so we can get a better view of the universe. We can conduct tests but tests are limited in their scope here, you need sufficient resources to create lab conditions. If we were in space we would have the entire resources of the solar system to develop new proto-type technology. We would have the space between stars if we wanted to experiment on creating our own star or planet in order to fully understand our own.

    You do have a good point however, I see the strength in creating a bottom-up system which loves science but then I would argue an interstellar society would also require a bottom-up appreciation of science (if not more as an earthbound society really only needs to know how utilise technology and not the laws of gravity and propulsion for instance.) The people and their civilisations would need to be geared towards the appreciation of space-flight implications, ways of minimising radiation risks, innovating increasingly inexpensive ways of surface-to-orbit transfer of materials and the issues of delay times in long-distance communication and the effects on maintaining contact with loved ones. It would run quite extensively through a united and connected society across planets or star systems. As it would be doubly-vital to a civilisation's existence (not just to ensure technology continually runs but so trade routes between planetary bodies can be continually used) I can very likely see astrophysics being taught to children at a young age and it would be appreciated at the very least because it directly influences everyday life.
    It's a good question.. Tbh, I haven't really thought about the underlying reason why I'm for "containment". I'm just focusing on the cause/effect of what it'd take to even advance space exploration in the first place. Putting that aside, I guess my motivation is ethical. Maybe that's an irrational basis to stop "space exploration". To me though, it's even more irrational to perpetuate a culture heavily dependent on scientific discoveries and inventions, without adopting the scientific mindset. And if it ever got to the point that this got off the planet, then you'll never be able to rope anyone in again. You'll have entire clusters of humanity in space who are akin to Homer Simpson working at a nuclear plant or Afghans with stinger missles. At least here, there's a better chance of educating them. Or at least, their descendents.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It's a good question.. Tbh, I haven't really thought about the underlying reason why I'm for "containment". I'm just focusing on the cause/effect of what it'd take to even advance space exploration in the first place. Putting that aside, I guess my motivation is ethical. Maybe that's an irrational basis to stop "space exploration". To me though, it's even more irrational to perpetuate a culture heavily dependent on scientific discoveries and inventions, without adopting the scientific mindset. And if it ever got to the point that this got off the planet, then you'll never be able to rope anyone in again. You'll have entire clusters of humanity in space who are akin to Homer Simpson working at a nuclear plant or Afghans with stinger missles. At least here, there's a better chance of educating them. Or at least, their descendents.
    You make it sound like they cannot be educated. What makes you think they could be educated here any more than out in space? The only advantage I can think of is if you were trying to make sure the population went through a rigorous school system to ensure they are educated more along your guidelines, mass-implement a method of modifying their DNA, or killing them off in mass population culls they would be far easier to capture and round up if trapped on a single planet.

  3. #13
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    You make it sound like they cannot be educated. What makes you think they could be educated here any more than out in space? The only advantage I can think of is if you were trying to make sure the population went through a rigorous school system to ensure they are educated more along your guidelines, mass-implement a method of modifying their DNA, or killing them off in mass population culls they would be far easier to capture and round up if trapped on a single planet.
    This kind of discipline needs to be instilled internally, over a long period of time, within the general direction (or even sentiment) of human culture itself. I'm not sure how one instills it though. If I did, I'd probably solve half of the world's problems right now. I don't think it's just about rigorous school systems, but about genuinely loving science. Something ingrained into the identity.

    This got me thinking though.. I have respect for those "backwards" groups like the Amish. At least they're honest - they know full well that they don't understand a lot of modern utilities, but instead of thinking what they could gain from them, they refuse to use them. I haven't read what their actual motivation is, but I respect what little I know. Their scientific understanding and the tools they use run in parallel. They come from a time when people who used a stove or a sawmill, understood the basic principles of how those things worked. We can't say the same for modern society. The problem is hardly just nuclear weapons and stinger missles. It's almost everything. People know how to turn cranks and press buttons, but that's it. I don't know how this will be fixed. We're starting to see the effects of our stupidity already, but we just look to governments to clean it up.

    Anyways, I'm about to go on rant, so I'll stop. I guess I could just say "Fuck it". Lets see where that takes us. If society ends up worse off for it, I know there's going to be survivors too.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Anyways, I'm about to go on rant, so I'll stop. I guess I could just say "Fuck it". Lets see where that takes us. If society ends up worse off for it, I know there's going to be survivors too.
    Fair enough. I don't think we will even make it to space (this colony would likely be the furthest we go) and are more or less destined to become like the Amish whether we like it or not. So the optimal methods of developing society is pure speculation in my view. You raised some good points however. Criminal or extremist elements with enough space and resources to become very serious threats. The rush for space would be like the ancient world all over again or at the very least the colonial period all over again. I personally do not think the potential of rabble should stop humanity's greatest enterprise.
    Last edited by Standuble; 02-24-2013 at 04:36 PM.

  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    http://mars-one.com/en/

    Anyone heard about this? Do you think its feasible and achievable?
    I just heard about it and am excited beyond words! Ever since childhood I dreamed of the possibility of humanity settling on Mars. That's how my brother, sister, and I played - we would design spaceships, settlements, working out how to terraform the planet using arctic lichens and mosses, etc. I think it is feasible. We landed on the moon using slide rules. Have you ever seen the old footage of NASA control center? It is shocking to see what they accomplished with such ancient technology. Our technology has advanced much faster than our space exploration, so our capabilities are beyond what we have seen.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    imo they should terraform it before trying to habit it with other people than researchers
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  7. #17
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    as much as i would like it to succeed (i was very excited when i first heard of this), in closer inspection this project is making too many assumptions about how the economic and media landscape will perform a decade from now. this makes it all too vulnerable to failure IMO. hopefully, other projects attempting to compete with this one utilizing a larger diversity of economic strategies will pop up, making it more likely one or more of them will succeed.

  8. #18
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    http://mars-one.com/en/

    Anyone heard about this? Do you think its feasible and achievable?
    Yes, but far later than the year 2023.
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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by yenom View Post
    http://mars-one.com/en/

    Anyone heard about this? Do you think its feasible and achievable?
    Most of these sorts of things don't achieve their ambitious goals in the time frame given, but I think good things can come from their supposed "failures".

    Without people striving for more, pushing the boundaries, and breaking assumptions, I don't think we would get very far as a species.

    I hope they succeed. But I am not ready to place any bets on this particular project.

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