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  1. #41
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Species don't change. They give rise to other species until they are extinct. If a new species rose out of humanity, humanity wouldn't necessarily be gone. I believe that all species on earth, now and later, will eventually be extinct. Yet, believing this only gives one reason to be grateful for the time we are granted here, and to treat others humanely.
    This.. +1

  2. #42
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avik View Post
    Ah, but the Universe shall go on. Maybe not in the form we know, but in some form or the other. First Law of Conservation of both matter and Energy- "Neither can Matter and Energy be created, nor can they be destroyed. However they are subject to change from one form to another."
    What does physics say about something from nothing? Or was there always something? Afterall you did say different forms....I suppose this could just be another one from something which was always there.

    That's about as far as my plebian mind has gone with consideration on the stereotypical, pseudo-intellectual nature of why. But I have no knowledge of physics and was never taught it. Perhaps I ought to pursue it?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avik View Post
    It isn't odd. Your human mind is wired to oppose change, and the destruction of the world as we know it, being the largest change imaginable, causes knots to form in your stomach.

    People can get morbid on realising that things are bound to change, and not always the way we'd like.

    The current theory states that after a certain point of expansion, galaxies and other systems shall remain stationary relative to other systems, or they shall get attracted by, perhaps, the gravitational force of the centre of the Universe, leading to, again, one of two possibilities. the Universe either collapses on itself, or, we have, yet another Big bang and the chain continues.

    I'm unaware of said theories.
    Do these theories assume the universe to be limited? Doesn't a collapsing system require something around it to provide the force to collapse it? Wouldn't an expanding system require something around it to limit its rate of expansion from going to infinity? Or do scientists only like to back up their pet theories, while ignoring everything else?

    This whole Big Bang thing seems like the Hyperfocus of rationality, rather than seeking what might happen to be more true.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Do these theories assume the universe to be limited? Doesn't a collapsing system require something around it to provide the force to collapse it? Wouldn't an expanding system require something around it to limit its rate of expansion from going to infinity? Or do scientists only like to back up their pet theories, while ignoring everything else?

    This whole Big Bang thing seems like the Hyperfocus of rationality, rather than seeking what might happen to be more true.
    Take the example of certain stars, they collapse on themselves without any force outside. Gravity brings this about.
    Now take the example of helium balloon, when it pops. the gas expands rapidly, and the atmosphere outside it actually aids this via diffusion of the gas.
    Since we can see that we don't need anything to aid collapse and expansion, we can also safely assume that the lack of anything outside, or inside, doesn't hamper the object in question.

    Jingoism belongs in the trash, so you had better keep it to yourself.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avik View Post
    Take the example of certain stars, they collapse on themselves without any force outside. Gravity brings this about.
    Now take the example of helium balloon, when it pops. the gas expands rapidly, and the atmosphere outside it actually aids this via diffusion of the gas.
    Since we can see that we don't need anything to aid collapse and expansion, we can also safely assume that the lack of anything outside, or inside, doesn't hamper the object in question.
    It still can be questionable.
    There are instances of stars falling into large black holes, traveling quickly around each other and with very fast rotations, wherein as they approach the black hole, the closer star will negate the gravity of the black hole, sling-shotting the other star far away from the gravitational field of the black hole.
    Many modern physicists can provide reason and evidence that all objects in the cosmos are thought to exert a gravity on all other objects, it's just that gravity becomes negligible once you break away from it to a certain point, as far as we are concerned (in fact it is their continual accumulation of facts that has grown this completely dynamic hypothesis about reality). But that doesn't mean we can safely assume anything, necessarily unless one is fine with what seems good enough. Because of this, it's even becoming prominent to think of the rotations of planets and their orbits as being a defining aspect of gravity, one where the dimensions of speed, mass, direction, acceleration, and distance traveled over time of each one needs to be considered relative to one another in order to understand, rather absolutely, what is going to take place.
    This even starts to beg the question of whether these things can exist absolutely, since as the definition or order of one dimension changes or is rearranged, the others have to follow suit with that perspective, changing themselves, hence one reason why relativity is studied and thought to be real.

    But in your example of the helium balloon popping, you say nothing hampers the object in question. One could say that the helium atoms inside the balloon act as particles (if we accept the notion of particles as spherical-like things) all moving about, compressed (however we want to understand what that compression would mean); it is then the balloon particles which makes this so, acting as a barrier between the helium inside the balloon and the particles outside the balloon. But we could say that the balloon particles also have their own movement of particles, but perhaps not nearly as much as the helium particles, from which they move around each other to some extent, but from our five sense we see and feel no movement. One would then have to conjure the idea of movement by finding evidence to support it, independently of what our common senses might say. In a way it is self-fulfilling, however, sometimes all it takes to disprove common sense is to use common sense and find the absurd. One could argue that as the balloon pops, its rubber tears over time. If the balloon exists strictly as a concrete entity (evenly distributed as a definite thing) and not an abstract one (one of parts that are connected in some way to the matter around it and then are malleable into any part we can conjure), then all it takes to disprove this is to consider taking the rubber and halving it continuously for a very long time; eventually, our senses will be no longer able to find evidence of the balloon existing anymore. But common sense also dictates that it would. In this sense, one might accept and invoke Newton's Third Law and suggest that as the balloon pops, a complex and dynamic process of movement involving particles is taking place, wherein, each dimension of movement I mentioned above is going to have an affect, but also an affect that is not immediate or absolute to all things (not just a movement of immediate reactions like a system of gears, but a unique perhaps non-absolute delay of simultaneous actions and reactions), because if it were immediate, what meaning would time have for us? And really, what use would reality have for us if it was already absolute and determined? It would be somewhat silly for us to even exist at all.

    Of course, this leads back to accepting that reality might also be infinite. Some people aren't okay with this, but if they study Modern Physics, it becomes hard to deny such ideas, given the insurmountable evidence in support of it, even if some of it may be based on philosophical notions to disprove what is thought to be common sense.

    Don't you find it interesting that as we exist and thrive on this planet, our doing so has almost no affect on the planets around us. And yet, on this planet there are many smaller things that we can discern. Who is to say that an electron can't contain a planet or that a neutron doesn't contain a galaxy? There seems to be two kinds of scientists, one that asks "Where is the beginning and where is the end to some knowledge and why should this be so?" and the other that decides "Here is the beginning and here is the end to some knowledge and this is why it should be so." It's rather funny, I guess, because they both are right in what their objectives aim, but yet are at odds with one another, regardless.

  6. #46
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You should check out this site if you haven't already: http://www.futuretimeline.net/index.htm#.UAm3aLSe6So

    I went through a phase where I was completely obsessed with this type of stuff - transhumanism, bio tech, nano tech, etc. It's like Ne-mental masturbation.
    I am currently enjoying this site.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #47
    ISFJophile zelo1954's Avatar
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    For me the answer to the thread title is YES. The answer to the OP's three options is 2)

    Briefly:

    Firstly. Our cooperative society has developed to such an extent that virtually everyone can reproduce. So-called survival of the fittest genes doesn't really apply anymore. There is no mechanism whereby unfavoured genetic combinations cannot reproduce.

    Secondly. We know enough about our solar system environment to know that it is only a matter of time before the world suffers another K/T or Permian disaster.

    Firstly ensures we stay the same. Secondly gives us an inevitability of being wiped out.
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  8. #48
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    We're still being naturally selected against, the parameters for survival have just changed, mainly because of our own doing.

  9. #49
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    Well, I've taken a few things in to consideration. There's the sun. It's the ultimate doomsday device. We've got 1 billion years to find somewhere else to go or to find a way around the sun expanding and getting hotter and hotter. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_will_our_sun_explode

    Then there's the part where we don't fucking get along with each other very well. The rich are screwing over the poor and the poor are getting pissed off. Countries are fighting other countries and we haven't really sat down and figured some way to work shit out with each other.

    Then we keep fucking our environment over. People with mindsets that scream "Screw the future I want to have shit for ME in MY lifetime cause I'm a selfish whore. Who cares if I create oil spills, I'll be fucking rich."

    Currently we're at a point where the race has quite a bit to work on for it's survival. And most of those with the means to help care more about getting money and more money.


    There's the evolution and technology thing to. Our technology seems to "evolve" at an exponential rate while we evolve at the regular rate most critters evolve. And Are tech is getting ahead of us.

    Right now I don't feel like factoring all of in [since I've just been asked to the movies and I like movies]. So maybe I'll wrap these thoughts up later.

    But overall I think the sun will kill us a billion years from now.

  10. #50
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    on this topic of humanity's speculative future evolution, i've found some stuff by artist and Nemo Ramjet you might all enjoy:






















    [IMG][/IMG]

    [IMG][/IMG]
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