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  1. #31
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Another thing that's occurred to me which should help, if you are going to use SATA drives makes sure you set the BIOS to use AHCI or it'll treat them like IDE drives (ie you can't use NCQ). If you do use AHCI then make sure to download the correct drivers to input when you install windows (ie you'll need to hammer F6 as windows begins to install (it does prompt you but not for long)).

    If you want to use RAID (oh and raid 0 is the fast one, raid 5 would be a bit of a waste of time for a games machine) then you'll need to do the same except setting the BIOS to RAID and getting RAID drivers on the floppies.

    As an aside, consider getting a hard drive just for the things you wish to keep. Then should you need to reformat your computer then all those downloaded drivers, saved games, emails and whatever can be kept nice and safe on that separate hard drive.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #32
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    If they made a regular quad-core without an unlocked multiplier at anywhere near same speed, I would have suggested that.

    So, what's your suggestion? Go down to dual-core for better speed, or stick with a sluggish regular Q6XXX processor which won't go higher than 2.66GHz? My father unfortunately got me a Q6600 @ 2.40GHz (which I didn't ask him to ), and it doesn't even run most applications as quickly as my old E6600 with a 2.66GHz processor. So you can't tell me processor speed doesn't make a difference. I even notice it on boot time, application start time, even while waiting for areas to load in games. Perhaps I'm just so impatient that I notice performance differences that would elude most people.
    Mine's a 2.4 and I can't say that a score of 5.8 on Vista is slow. Plus how much do you pay to get that 5% difference which you may notice sometimes? It's inefficient.

    Get a processor with a high FSB and relax is my motto.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well in that case, he should probably look out for them in case he needs the speed. But if he doesn't get a Raptor, he should at least get a drive with a larger buffer and the best SATA connection available. Basically, I'm saying don't go too cheap for bigger storage. I honestly have never been able to use more than 60% of a 200GB drive, and that was when I was incredibly lazy about cleaning it up for several years. The drive died before I even got close to it's capacity. You're probably right about RAID, although it still might improve performance slightly.
    My storage drive is getting close to half full and I don't load drives more than half full because it makes them incredibly sluggish. Even Raptors don't survive well unless you take care of them. My friends prize raptor went through HDtach and came out lower than ATA100!! Super advertised speed is NOT a guarantee of actual performance. That why half of the reviewers state specifically that they are synthetic benchmarks and not real world results.

    As for real world stuff, the raptor loads slower than my drive on FarCry.. go figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    You're discounting the performance impact of all these things individually as negligable, but I want you to consider something... taken together, won't they make a bigger impact and result in a less powerful system where you can't do things quite as well or quickly?
    It's about bottlenecks not centres of excellence. A fast processor is playing with itself half the time unless your OS is configured correctly, your motherboard can keep up, you have fast enough memory, a fast enough optimised hard drive etc etc etc.

    You get more bang for your buck (a whole truck load more) by paying attention to what services you're running and defragging your drive than you will tacking on a high speed processor to a dog of a system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    And you still haven't answered my main question... why is everyone's mind so focused on "best deals" rather than "best quality" or "best performance"? It's like you're all internally assured that that's the most important thing.
    Because you're not advising on the best components. Have a look at SSD drives and then tell me how cheap and slow your raptor really is. It's a question of everything in moderation.

    Personally I never start looking at components until I've chosen a motherboard, the most often overlooked component. After that I'm more concerned with the power supply than I am what hard drive I buy. Get one of the first two wrong and you're just throwing money down a pit.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #33
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Mine's a 2.4 and I can't say that a score of 5.8 on Vista is slow. Plus how much do you pay to get that 5% difference which you may notice sometimes? It's inefficient.

    Get a processor with a high FSB and relax is my motto.
    Well, it's possible that something else is configured badly on it... my guess is that it's that 800MHz DDR2.

    It's about bottlenecks not centres of excellence. A fast processor is playing with itself half the time unless your OS is configured correctly, your motherboard can keep up, you have fast enough memory, a fast enough optimised hard drive etc etc etc.

    You get more bang for your buck (a whole truck load more) by paying attention to what services you're running and defragging your drive than you will tacking on a high speed processor to a dog of a system.
    That sounds right, then. I've always been careful to shut down unneeded services and such when running an intensive application. I even kept a K6-2 accessing the internet well enough with Flash on a regular basis by configuring it to run Firefox as it's shell automatically instead of Explorer. It just seems like I have a lot less control in Vista.

    I wonder how much better we could run applications if we could pare Windows down so that only enough of it were run in order to run the specific application we're trying to get the performance out of, instead of having the whole mess open all the time?

    I do still think that getting fast memory, a good video card, and a good motherboard is important, though. Probably more important than a fast processor, considering how fast all of them are these days. Hard drive really only affects you while you load it into memory.
    Because you're not advising on the best components. Have a look at SSD drives and then tell me how cheap and slow your raptor really is. It's a question of everything in moderation.

    Personally I never start looking at components until I've chosen a motherboard, the most often overlooked component. After that I'm more concerned with the power supply than I am what hard drive I buy. Get one of the first two wrong and you're just throwing money down a pit.
    Well, yes. You have to make sure everything is compatible with the motherboard you've chosen, and that it's well-designed enough to do everything you want. And without a good power supply, you could fry components, or not have enough capacity to do what you want.

    SSD drives... I've heard about them, but I haven't seen any consumer-level models. Some of those would bring you close to the performance of running your whole system out of a RAM drive rather than on a Hard Drive. Yeah, who wouldn't want one of those?

    I know I argue a lot, but that's because I find it harder to learn unless I argue. If I didn't respect you, I'd dismiss you without arguing.

  4. #34
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, it's possible that something else is configured badly on it... my guess is that it's that 800MHz DDR2.
    800 ain't bad... 900 does seem to be obviously faster though. If you've got Corsair you should be able to just add about .1 of a volt and set it to 900 though. Not that I'd suggest such lightly.. not when OCZ1150mhz is sooo cheap.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That sounds right, then. I've always been careful to shut down unneeded services and such when running an intensive application. I even kept a K6-2 accessing the internet well enough with Flash on a regular basis by configuring it to run Firefox as it's shell automatically instead of Explorer. It just seems like I have a lot less control in Vista.
    Less control in Vista? Nah *snigger*... I figure that Vista is more enthusiast level. It took me about two weeks to firstly figure out that I needed to unlock the admin account and secondly to find out how
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I do still think that getting fast memory and a good video card is important, though. Probably more important than a fast processor, considering how fast all of them are these days.
    Now there you're probably bang on. Memory speed is crucial. As is latency... but I'm not getting into that debate (no not even if you're really argumentative ).

    Basically I'd advise getting the fastest memory with the tightest timings. In that order I prioritise them, right or wrong... who knows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, yes. You have to make sure everything is compatible with the motherboard you've chosen, and that it's well-designed enough to do everything you want. And without a good power supply, you could fry components, or not have enough capacity to do what you want.
    And a stable enough power feed so it doesn't drop half a volt suddenly and make the whole thing go unstable!
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    SSD drives... I've heard about them, but I haven't seen any consumer-level models. Some of those would bring you close to the performance of running your whole system out of a RAM drive rather than on a Hard Drive. Yeah, who wouldn't want one of those?
    Well if commercially available is 600 quid approx for about 64Gb then yes they are. Oh and yes they are quick.. I'd bet Xtreme Systems has had several on test for a while now... they're addicts!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I know I argue a lot, but that's because I find it harder to learn unless I argue. If I didn't respect you, I'd dismiss you without arguing.
    You? Argue? I hadn't noticed
    It's all good. I used to do exactly the same thing. People explain more when you back them up against the wall

    (Note to admins... is there a fix for the whole cutting off posts after a monetary symbol cause it's really irritating.. Thanks)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #35
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    800 ain't bad... 900 does seem to be obviously faster though. If you've got Corsair you should be able to just add about .1 of a volt and set it to 900 though. Not that I'd suggest such lightly.. not when OCZ1150mhz is sooo cheap.

    Less control in Vista? Nah *snigger*... I figure that Vista is more enthusiast level. It took me about two weeks to firstly figure out that I needed to unlock the admin account and secondly to find out how
    That's probably right... I've already managed to disable UAC. I just haven't figured out how to get rid of all those start-up services, or whether the performance gain I get from disabling Aero is worth it. It seems so to me, but my father insists that Aero adds important features, and seemed frustrated that the first thing I wanted to do was disable it (insisting the computer could run just as well with it enabled). I honestly haven't found anything other than transparent windows and flip-3d, which seem pretty superfluous.
    Now there you're probably bang on. Memory speed is crucial. As is latency... but I'm not getting into that debate (no not even if you're really argumentative ).

    Basically I'd advise getting the fastest memory with the tightest timings. In that order I prioritise them, right or wrong... who knows.
    What if I agree with you? I think memory timings/latency are important as well. Whether I bought memory or not would be related to that. Unfortunately, my father picked out old 800MHz gaming memory, when after looking I realized that DDR2 goes higher than that, and even has better timings these days. That explains why everything else in my system is 5.9, but my memory is only 5.0, and I'm annoyed with the performance.
    And a stable enough power feed so it doesn't drop half a volt suddenly and make the whole thing go unstable!
    Yes. Some people say you even need a UPS thing with a battery to create "clean" power in order to protect the computer from typical energy spikes that wouldn't have affected older ones. What do you think of that?

  6. #36
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's probably right... I've already managed to disable UAC. I just haven't figured out how to get rid of all those start-up services, or whether the performance gain I get from disabling Aero is worth it. It seems so to me, but my father insists that Aero adds important features, and seemed frustrated that I wanted to disable it. I honestly haven't found anything other than transparent windows and flip-3d, which seem pretty superfluous.
    Aero is nice, I used it, and the memory it uses is negligible. What you probably haven't done is allow the new cache system to get used to you. Try to suffer for a couple of months without doing the IT equivalent of root canal surgery and see how it goes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What if I agree with you?
    Then I'll swiftly change my opinion lest you get bored
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think memory timings/latency are important as well. Whether I bought memory or not would be related to that. Unfortunately, my father picked out old 800MHz gaming memory, when after looking I realized that DDR2 goes higher than that, and even has better timings these days. That explains why everything else in my system is 5.9, but my memory is only 5.0, and I'm annoyed with the performance.
    5.0 oh yeah that's sooo slow. Anyone ever told you you're impatient?

    Next time, OCZ 1150mhz. Just check the motherboard first. Oh and they run hotter and at 2.3 volts (at least I think it's 2.3 ... could be 2.1).
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yes. Some people say you even need a UPS thing with a battery to create "clean" power in order to protect the computer from typical energy spikes that wouldn't have affected older ones. What do you think of that?
    Hmm I think that's a nice toy. Bit redundant though isn't it? You can get expensive surge protectors to do that.... or just a decent power supply.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #37
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Aero is nice, I used it, and the memory it uses is negligible. What you probably haven't done is allow the new cache system to get used to you. Try to suffer for a couple of months without doing the IT equivalent of root canal surgery and see how it goes.
    That would be hard. I don't really tend to use my computer the same way consistently enough for anything to "get used" to me. I'm rather different from the average computer user. I think I enjoy configuring a computer more than I enjoy using it. In fact, if I were expected to just use a computer without configuring/messing with it, I'd probably get bored. I'm always trying to make it do something or other as well as it can.

    It's rather strange... I'm content to do everything else in life the same way fairly consistently, but I would get irritated if I had to do that on my computer.
    Hmm I think that's a nice toy. Bit redundant though isn't it? You can get expensive surge protectors to do that.... or just a decent power supply.
    That's what I thought, too. I see all kinds of power regulation stuff inside a power supply, so it seems to me that the processor should be safe with or without an external UPS cleaning up "dirty" power.

  8. #38
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That would be hard. I don't really tend to use my computer the same way consistently enough for anything to "get used" to me. I'm rather different from the average computer user. I think I enjoy configuring a computer more than I enjoy using it. In fact, if I were expected to just use a computer without configuring/messing with it, I'd probably get bored. I'm always trying to make it do something or other as well as it can.

    It's rather strange... I'm content to do everything else in life the same way fairly consistently, but I would get irritated if I had to do that on my computer.
    A fellow tinkerer. Basically you have years of high end computers failing to work ahead of you. Hair loss, caffeine addiction and high blood pressure shall be your companion in life
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's what I thought, too. I see all kinds of power regulation stuff inside a power supply, so it seems to me that the processor should be safe with or without an external UPS cleaning up "dirty" power.
    Well it should have some effect. Two filters are better than one and all that.. however a decent PSU and some of them nice japanese solid state digital capacitors should do fine. Hence I recommend the DQ6.

    Mind you there's lots of hocus pocus in computing. For example I won't use Asus stuff... for me it always goes wrong but for others it's great stuff. Mind you I think I've hit just about every problem in the book.

    Btw, try searching for msconfig and running it as administrator to stop programs running at startup, you've probably tried that but it's worth a shot.|
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #39
    Large Member Ender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I honestly have never been able to use more than 60% of a 200GB drive, and that was when I was incredibly lazy about cleaning it up for several years. The drive died before I even got close to it's capacity.
    There is of course people like me on the other hand who have less then 350GB unused of the 1.25TB total space available.

    Edit: I spent a lil time messin around on the Australian PC store sites etc and came up with this rough overview of a system. The only parts I left out are the keyboard and mouse since they're really down to personal preference. If I was spendin about $5k this is more or less what I'd get myself.



    Theres a bunch of things you can change around if you wanted too.

    Ditch the raptors and go for a 2nd 1TB drive, or ditch the 1TB drive all together.

    Vidcard wise it's a Tri-Crossfire setup, you could go for a Dual-Crossfire in which case I'd suggest the single 3870X2 as it leaves room for future expansion, or ditch the 3870 and get a second 3870X2 for a Quad-Crossfire setup.

    Edit2: For fun I did a comparison as to what this system would cost me here in Canada, spurred mainly by the fact the Logitech G15 Keyboard is still near $90aus Anyway, after pricing it out and converting the currencies, a system like this is at least $800aus cheaper here.... You guys are getting screwed price wise
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  10. #40
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Athenian200;206608]If they made a regular quad-core without an unlocked multiplier at anywhere near same speed, I would have suggested that.

    So, what's your suggestion? Go down to dual-core for better speed, or stick with a sluggish regular Q6XXX processor which won't go higher than 2.66GHz? My father unfortunately got me a Q6600 @ 2.40GHz (which I didn't ask him to ), and it doesn't even run most applications as quickly as my old E6600 with a 2.66GHz processor. So you can't tell me processor speed doesn't make a difference. I even notice it on boot time, application start time, even while waiting for areas to load in games. Perhaps I'm just so impatient that I notice performance differences that would elude most people.



    [quote]Well in that case, he should probably look out for them in case he needs the speed. But if he doesn't get a Raptor, he should at least get a drive with a larger buffer and the best SATA connection available. Basically, I'm saying don't go too cheap for bigger storage.

    I honestly have never been able to use more than 60% of a 200GB drive, and that was when I was incredibly lazy about cleaning it up for several years.
    Wow...I'm pushing 1.5TB currently. Then again, I've got at least 25000 songs ripped in in FLAC, along with my entire movie collection, plus ISO's of various operating systems and software.

    You're discounting the performance impact of all these things individually as negligable, but I want you to consider something... taken together, won't they make a bigger impact and result in a less powerful system where you can't do things quite as well or quickly?
    The idea is to reduce costs in areas where you won't have any major impact, even when combined together.

    And you still haven't answered my main question... why is everyone's mind so focused on "best deals" rather than "best quality" or "best performance"? It's like you're all internally assured that that's the most important thing.
    Because most people don't enjoy spending money to get nothing worthwhile in return? Getting the best of everything sounds nice, but when one notch down from the absolute best does the same thing, and as far as you can tell, just as well....and costs half the price, why wouldn't you get it instead?

    Also, on an unrelated note, I suggest checking out Sisoft Sandra Lite for some more in depth computer benchmarks.
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