Gender identity difference has higher occurance in individuals with asd

[Betty Blue]

According to a study conducted in the Netherlands there may be much higher occurance of GID in individuals with Autistic Spectrum Disorders (than non asd individuals).


Below i have pasted an abstract and provided a link to the study report.
I would like to ask if anyone has any other information to suggest a link or any other evidence to suggest so.
I would also like to ask if anyone has any annecdotal evidence as i believe this is also important.
Thank you.


Abstract
Only case reports have described the co-occurrence of gender identity disorder (GID)
and autism spectrum disorders (ASD). This study examined this co-occurrence using a
systematic approach. Children and adolescents (115 boys and 89 girls, mean age 10.8,
SD=3.58) referred to a gender identity clinic received a standardized assessment during
which a GID diagnosis was made and ASD suspected cases were identified. The Dutch
version of the Diagnostic Interview for Social and Communication Disorders (10th rev.,
DISCO-10) was administered to ascertain ASD classifications. The incidence of ASD in
this sample of children and adolescents was 7.8% (n=16). Clinicians should be aware of
co-occurring ASD and GID and the challenges it generates in clinical management.



LINK....
http://dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/1871/16287/2/chapter_4.pdf


FOR CLARITY: Gender Identity Difference is commonly referred to as "Gender Identity Disorder" or "Gender Dysmorphia".
As i do not like the negative connotations of the words "Disorder" or "Dysmorphia" I have used the more nuetral term of "Difference".

 

[Savage Idealist]

Intruiging. As someone with ASD (aspergers specifically) and spiritually androgynous I can definitely concur with the results of this study.

It makes me wonder though as to why individuals with ASD are more likely to have GID; perhaps its due to a mechanical set up of how the brain works for these individuals; those with any degree of autism have brains that do function differently from others (exactly how, I think if one imagines a normal brain as a computer, than one with ASD just has too many wires in the hardrive or something like that).

Although I worry, as it is entirely possible that the study is but an uncanny correleation, and not a definite cause as to why individuals with GID are more likely to ASD.

 

[Totenkindly]

It's kind of funny, though, because in all the transpeople I've met in my life, only 3-4 have been diagnosed with some type of autism (whether full blown or something like Asperger's). One of them, interestingly, was a F2M and so would be classified as female Asperger's (and she was a definite extreme case). So in terms of anecdotal evidence, I would not say my experience here in the States reflects the outcome of this overseas study.

I also have wondered independently if Asperger's is becoming the ADHD of the 21st century, in terms of overdiagnosis.

 

[Mal12345]

This topic was confusing to me, because the title says "difference" and the op says "disorder." I had to do a double-take a couple times. That makes it a quadruple-take.

 

[Betty Blue]

This topic was confusing to me, because the title says "difference" and the op says "disorder." I had to do a double-take a couple times. That makes it a quadruple-take.

Yes my appologies.
I did edit the Op to explain after posting but my connection was playing up and i had not realised it didn't post.
I shall re-edit now.

 

[Betty Blue]

Thanks for your imput Savage Idealist.
I am visiting the Tavistock and Portman in a couple of weeks which is the Gender Identity Difference for the U.K.
I understand from speaking to a phychiatrist there that they have done some research/studies themselves or at least have information on research/studies.
I shall post this information once i have it.
It will be interesting to see if the results/findings are similar to those in the Netherlands.
Certainly i understand there is a higher ratio of children and adolescents with asd (than the "norm") from the conversations so far.

 

[Salomé]

It makes me wonder though as to why individuals with ASD are more likely to have GID;

If gender is merely a social construct, it makes all kinds of sense: ASD creates indifference to arbitrary social constructs. It's a defining feature.

It's kind of funny, though, because in all the transpeople I've met in my life, only 3-4 have been diagnosed with some type of autism

Transsexuality is but one (extreme) manifestation of GID.

 

[Totenkindly]

Transsexuality is but one (extreme) manifestation of GID.

While they're not nearly the same (the one is a syndrome, the other a solution... in the most general sense), I think they're more interwoven than that since there is no real effective resolution to adult GID depending upon the severity -- which is bad to start with if they are bothering to be diagnosed with it to begin with.

(Childhood GID is different, since sometimes it resolves itself and/or results in a non-het orientation instead. Of course, now that I refresh myself with the thread, the research was done on kids and adolescents, so...)

 

[Salomé]

While they're not nearly the same (the one is a syndrome, the other a solution... in the most general sense), I think they're more interwoven than that since there is no real effective resolution to adult GID depending upon the severity -- which is bad to start with if they are bothering to be diagnosed with it to begin with.

My point is that transsexualism is a solution that reinforces the gender binary - a solution that molds the individual to societal norms. So the fact that, anecdotally, you find no correlation between ASD and transsexualism doesn't necessarily say anything about the relationship between GID and ASD.

 

[Totenkindly]

My point is that transsexualism is a solution that reinforces the gender binary - a solution that molds the individual to societal norms. So the fact that, anecdotally, you find no correlation between ASD and transsexualism doesn't necessarily say anything about the relationship between GID and ASD.

Thank you for clarifying. I will note that transsexuality is not actually about 'conforming to societal norms,' it's about conforming to the internal sense of self' which might or might not reflect societal norms, and it is becoming more and more individualized with each generation (the Boomer transpeople tend to conform far more to gender stereotypes in their expression, while the Gen Y and younger crowd contain much more variety).

However, since ASD typically has trouble even recognizing the norm, let alone reflecting it, I can now see where you're going with this.

 

[Savage Idealist]

If gender is merely a social construct, it makes all kinds of sense: ASD creates indifference to arbitrary social constructs. It's a defining feature.

Indeed Especially considering the 'indifference to arbitrary social constructs part'; that's so me

 

[omglookitsagoat]

It's kind of funny, though, because in all the transpeople I've met in my life, only 3-4 have been diagnosed with some type of autism (whether full blown or something like Asperger's). One of them, interestingly, was a F2M and so would be classified as female Asperger's (and she was a definite extreme case). So in terms of anecdotal evidence, I would not say my experience here in the States reflects the outcome of this overseas study.

I also have wondered independently if Asperger's is becoming the ADHD of the 21st century, in terms of overdiagnosis.

I wonder if Asperger's is over-diagnosed too. My mom has suggested a few times that I might have it, but I really don't think so. Maybe Is and especially ITs seem like it to EF types? I read the symptoms of Asperger's online and hardly have any of them. The only thing I have in common with Asperger's is that I'm not very social, but there are far more traits than that so I understand.

 

[Totenkindly]

I wonder if Asperger's is over-diagnosed too. My mom has suggested a few times that I might have it, but I really don't think so. Maybe Is and especially ITs seem like it to EF types? I read the symptoms of Asperger's online and hardly have any of them. The only thing I have in common with Asperger's is that I'm not very social, but there are far more traits than that so I understand.

From my interactions with hardcore diagnosed Aspies, INTs seem to have problems with social cues (either "grasping" them or caring enough to grasp them), but after struggle can develop some competence with it; but for Aspies, it's like the social cues are literally invisible and even when they try, it's like trying to hear someone speak a foreign language they haven't studied just by guessing random strings of syllables/words that sound like they could be right.

It's also kind of a weird mix between TJ traits and TP traits -- there's a lot of abstraction and conceptualization involved (which is like ITP), but there also seems to be a high need for clarity and detail and structure (TJ), and the two are in competition with each other. Usually I just experience one or the other as stronger in a non-Aspie person.

 

[omglookitsagoat]

From my interactions with hardcore diagnosed Aspies, INTs seem to have problems with social cues (either "grasping" them or caring enough to grasp them), but after struggle can develop some competence with it; but for Aspies, it's like the social cues are literally invisible and even when they try, it's like trying to hear someone speak a foreign language they haven't studied just by guessing random strings of syllables/words that sound like they could be right.

It's also kind of a weird mix between TJ traits and TP traits -- there's a lot of abstraction and conceptualization involved (which is like ITP), but there also seems to be a high need for clarity and detail and structure (TJ), and the two are in competition with each other. Usually I just experience one or the other as stronger in a non-Aspie person.

Interesting observation.

I'm curious, Jennifer, is your mbti INTP or socionics INTp? Socionics is a little different than mbti. Socionics INTp is more like mbti INTJ. Just askin'

 

[Totenkindly]

Interesting observation.

I'm curious, Jennifer, is your mbti INTP or socionics INTp? Socionics is a little different than mbti. Socionics INTp is more like mbti INTJ. Just askin'

I know. I'm actually nowhere close to an mbti intj.

 

[omglookitsagoat]

I know. I'm actually nowhere close to an mbti intj.

ok just wondering because I think most people who use socionics write their type with one lowercase if they're introverted. Usually the one at the end. EG: socionics INTj = mbti INTP. I don't think socionics is as accurate as mbti so I don't like it as much.

The reason introverted types have a lowercase at the end and uppercase for the 1st 3 letters is because socionics types people by which function is their dominant. T and F are considered J functions. S and N are considered P functions. That is why mbti INTP = socionics INTj. This causes confusion to people and it seems like a lot of people mix up some of the mbti J and P traits and the socionics descriptions sound like hybrid mbti INTP and INTJ descriptions a lot of the time. That's why I don't think it's as accurate. Also because there's a lot of socionics theory that isn't supported by many professionals. For example, according to socionics.com, you can tell a person's type by their physical appearance. I'm not sure I buy that.

 

[MiriMiriAru]

This is quite interesting, especially as I seem to fit this (possibly, in that I had been diagnosed with Asperger's in high school, but if it was correct, it's an incredibly mild form, and I don't really have a lot of faith that the school counselor was qualified to make that diagnosis).

My point is that transsexualism is a solution that reinforces the gender binary - a solution that molds the individual to societal norms. So the fact that, anecdotally, you find no correlation between ASD and transsexualism doesn't necessarily say anything about the relationship between GID and ASD.

While gender roles, or presentation, are definitely social constructs, gender identity, I would argue, is not, or at least not entirely. Considering that transsexualism generally (not in all cases, for various reasons) results in some degree of change to the body, through hormone therapy and/or surgery, and physical sex is most definitely not a social construct, a rejection of social norms and constructs and the holding of a clear binary gender identity are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Totenkindly]

This is quite interesting, especially as I seem to fit this (possibly, in that I had been diagnosed with Asperger's in high school, but if it was correct, it's an incredibly mild form, and I don't really have a lot of faith that the school counselor was qualified to make that diagnosis).

I'd be surprised. My consistent experience with Aspberger patients is that they aren't even aware of the social cues and become frustrated trying to understand them, whereas you seem to have a heightened awareness. I'd also expect you to have more problems with Avoidant-style issues than Schizoid-style issues.

ok just wondering because I think most people who use socionics write their type with one lowercase if they're introverted. Usually the one at the end. EG: socionics INTj = mbti INTP. I don't think socionics is as accurate as mbti so I don't like it as much.

If you notice, I lowered the t, not the P. This is not Socionics convention. In reality, it's not really any sort of convention, I was just acknowledging that to some people, they see I have a strong awareness of F perspective/concerns, and typically I allow my N to lead while my T is sitting back and observing and figuring things out. But really, it's non-official terminology.

The reason introverted types have a lowercase at the end and uppercase for the 1st 3 letters is because socionics types people by which function is their dominant. T and F are considered J functions. S and N are considered P functions. That is why mbti INTP = socionics INTj. This causes confusion to people and it seems like a lot of people mix up some of the mbti J and P traits and the socionics descriptions sound like hybrid mbti INTP and INTJ descriptions a lot of the time.

Yes, I'm very aware of that. In a nutshell, Socionics uses J/P to label the dominant, whereas MBTI uses it to label the extraverted function. I identify more with the MBTI descriptions, personally.

That's why I don't think it's as accurate.

Both are frameworks of looking at people, so how would we determine "accurate?" It's almost like saying T is more "accurate" than F, for example, or vice versa.

But I find MBTI more useful since it's easier to observe the extraverted function, whereas you can only see an introverted dominant indirectly.

Also because there's a lot of socionics theory that isn't supported by many professionals. For example, according to socionics.com, you can tell a person's type by their physical appearance. I'm not sure I buy that.

Socionics is not really standardized in the same way MBTI seems to be. There's various schools, and not all support the "personality based on appearance" theory, which I personally see as about as accurate as phrenology. I'm willing to consider that psychological bent can change to a degree the amount a person engages the environment and uses their body, which can impact body development; but the degree to which this is taken by some Sociologists seems absurd to me and unsupportable.

 

[Eric B]

I once briefly pondered GID issues, and even discussed this with Jennifer a bit, but since then, I've determined that it is really mid-life issues involving the anima. The anima or inferior complex would contain all those images suppressed from the dominant ego perspective (such as the function and orientation, etc), and I believe, would also include a sense of the opposite gender. It's something you want to connect with in some way, and yet remains out of reach. And if the ego has felt frustrated in life in its goals and world-view, then this opposite perspective becomes even more of a curiosity.

I had been wondering what ASD actually does to the functional preference or the cognitive profile in general. I'm thinking one thing it might do is bring some of the archetypal images more into consciousness than for normal people. Hence, identifying more with the opposite gender, and therefore seeing to have possible gender identity issues. Also, all the other ways in which they think differently. They would in that case be aware of a lot of kinds of data and imagery that most people squelch from consciousness. (And thus seem meaningless to others).

 

[MiriMiriAru]

I'd be surprised. My consistent experience with Aspberger patients is that they aren't even aware of the social cues and become frustrated trying to understand them, whereas you seem to have a heightened awareness. I'd also expect you to have more problems with Avoidant-style issues than Schizoid-style issues.

I did say I didn't have a lot of confidence in her abilities

I think she took a very superficial view of things, and saw my habitual avoidance of eye contact and poor understanding of social cues to mean something more than the fact that I had been largely socially isolated for the 8 years before she saw me. I think that there is a strong tendency to over diagnose with Asperger's, because the diagnostic criteria are very vague, and very broad. Being socially awkward isn't always, or even most of the time, a sign of an ASD.

So yeah, having slept on it, this study seems a bit... bollocks. I can see though, how many with GID could get a misdiagnosis of Asperger's, especially if they are introverted thinking types, as the frequently attendant depression (perhaps coupled with a naturally reticent personality) could cause a social withdrawal that could be seen as something other than what it is.