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  1. #11
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Before responding, I'd like to know for certain if the OP is talking about Fresco's vision.

  2. #12
    Member JediVulcanisim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The profit based economy is meant to be a resource based economy, it idea being that the price mechanism provides the only accurate estimation of available resources, the pursuit of profit is afforded by markets allows decisions about costs to be made which result in the efficient allocation of resources.

    That's the theory anyway, there are problems with it, private and public managerialism grows increasingly alike, so most of the legitimate criticisms of central planning can be applied also to private corporations of a certain scale or status (ie vital ones which can not be permitted to fail), the tokens, ie money, have a value independent of what they are meant to represent and that value does not expire in the fashion of other resources.

    There's aspects of alternative economic thinking, either participatory economics or economic democracy which could correct some of these problems through structural adjustments but there's not the will for that, not locally or nationally, let alone globally, and any nation which would attempt that would suffer, finance is fickle and mobile and nation states will collude with it to maximise their own selfish and strategic advantages.
    The only direct relation tokens have with resources and the profit is that to scarcity. Now understand that the amount of flow of tokens is not directly related to scarcity, and that scarcity can be created by tokens.

    also realize that in order to survive many are forced into slavery for two-thirds of their life so that they may only live the way they see fit one-third of their life. This distribution of time is unnecessary and forces people to specialize in one industry or another, thus forcing beings into a lack of knowledge and basing their thought processes on pretense and assumption.
    Jedi Code (revised by Moi)

    With emotion one must search for peace.
    With the understanding of ignorance one must search for knowledge.
    In passion one must seek serenity.
    In chaos, one must search for harmony.
    In death one may become one with The Force.

  3. #13
    Member JediVulcanisim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I suspect that the OP is talking about the Zeitgeist Movement when making reference to a resource based economy...
    Not necessarily, the zeitgeist movement has inherent flaws in their form of resource management.

    My understanding of the resource based economy is where human beings focus on producing their own resources and only require technology in order to reap the resources necessary to survive.
    Jedi Code (revised by Moi)

    With emotion one must search for peace.
    With the understanding of ignorance one must search for knowledge.
    In passion one must seek serenity.
    In chaos, one must search for harmony.
    In death one may become one with The Force.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JediVulcanisim View Post
    Not necessarily, the zeitgeist movement has inherent flaws in their form of resource management.

    My understanding of the resource based economy is where human beings focus on producing their own resources and only require technology in order to reap the resources necessary to survive.
    Replace survive with thrive. We aren't just surviving, we have standards, and our technology allows these standards to be quite high.

  5. #15
    Member JediVulcanisim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, what constitutes a need? How do you plan around that? Who's to judge what is useless jobs?

    I'm not sure that an exclusively subsistence based economy would be preferable to the status quo, there are a lot of jobs which appear to do little other that circulate the money and grow the economy but its how the present levels of prosperity are created and maintained, the main alternative to this, objectively speaking, is a niche market as opposed to mass market based economy.

    In that sort of economy I dont prosper, neither do a lot of other people, definitely not the workers but also, arguably, any vestiages of independent, small owner enterprises, possibly even other larger retailers such as franchises and chain stores too, a great number of those dependent on the disposable incomes of the spending poor, including the welfare or underclasses they complain most loudly about supporting through taxation.
    Would you not prosper by choice, and choosing to survive would be more important than just existing?
    Jedi Code (revised by Moi)

    With emotion one must search for peace.
    With the understanding of ignorance one must search for knowledge.
    In passion one must seek serenity.
    In chaos, one must search for harmony.
    In death one may become one with The Force.

  6. #16
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure that an exclusively subsistence based economy would be preferable to the status quo
    It's quite clear that the present model is unsustainable in a few decades. It might be already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well, what constitutes a need? How do you plan around that? Who's to judge what is useless jobs?
    Start by food, health care, schools and such. Then add anything that isn't using any natural resourses, then add the ones that use renewable resourses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    In that sort of economy I dont prosper, neither do a lot of other people
    You haven't tried.

    EDIT: An economy that would make me thrive would be one that acknowledges people as essential. Society is for people, and the companies are for people. Somehow people forgot that. They locked themselves into an economy that worships itself and pushes itself up for no reason at all. If a person is not willing to work overtime or to submit himself under the same money worship, there will be someone to replace him. Someone more desperate.

    It often seems like the people that are for the current system are just the ones who need certainty so much that they rather choose an inherently flawed system than even think trying something else. They overlook one flaw in the system. But it is the fundamental flaw.

  7. #17
    Member JediVulcanisim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure what that is.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kHhc67GopM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKX9TWRyfs

    I request you watch these in full first.
    Jedi Code (revised by Moi)

    With emotion one must search for peace.
    With the understanding of ignorance one must search for knowledge.
    In passion one must seek serenity.
    In chaos, one must search for harmony.
    In death one may become one with The Force.

  8. #18
    Member JediVulcanisim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm still not clear.

    Is it the idea that improvements in information and computerised solutions to simultaneous equations will resolve the calculation debate and permit central planning or managerialism to succeed or mimic competitive markets or perfect competition?
    Omniknowledgeability is the ability to apply knowledge from all aspects of human discovery. (i.e. all sciences, and forms of human communication)
    Jedi Code (revised by Moi)

    With emotion one must search for peace.
    With the understanding of ignorance one must search for knowledge.
    In passion one must seek serenity.
    In chaos, one must search for harmony.
    In death one may become one with The Force.

  9. #19
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JediVulcanisim View Post
    Not necessarily, the zeitgeist movement has inherent flaws in their form of resource management.

    My understanding of the resource based economy is where human beings focus on producing their own resources and only require technology in order to reap the resources necessary to survive.
    Can you link the sources for your understanding of this term? It was originally coined by Jacque Fresco who's the founder of The Venus Project, where the Zeitgeist Movement is the official activist arm.

    It's a form of global collectivism in every aspect of society. It would include overhauling the existing monetary system, where everyone lives equally regardless of their work or productivity and technology would be used to assist and also to decision make.

  10. #20
    Member JediVulcanisim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Before responding, I'd like to know for certain if the OP is talking about Fresco's vision.
    Not Exactly, but very similar in concept. There would be no exchange of goods or services; just the expectation that immediate human needs are tended to first and foremost.

    For example: Say community A has a shortage of water and community B does not have enough to cover all of the water needed, but is able to give a portion of what they have without endangering their lives. The water is a gift, not something you can hold over another human being and essentially force community A to give more than what they are able to just to survive a tad longer. If anything, a profit based economy is a band-aid for human existence.
    Jedi Code (revised by Moi)

    With emotion one must search for peace.
    With the understanding of ignorance one must search for knowledge.
    In passion one must seek serenity.
    In chaos, one must search for harmony.
    In death one may become one with The Force.

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