User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 45

  1. #1
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default How good software makes us stupid

    BBC News - How good software makes us stupid

    Not to over excite the geeks but I always wondered at Star Trek. Not because of all the technology or any advisor/ weirdo's cleavage but simply at the breadth of knowledge each person had.

    To know advanced mathematics and physics in excess of what our professors know today and yet also be able to do botany, martial arts and say basket weaving. I spent a whole load of time considering how this was possible when you think that they come out of the academy at what seems like 21 or so. I eventually figured that advances in teaching techniques and the ability to computerise large parts of the process would help. It was a simple solution but, in my defence, for an unquantified and ill defined question.

    Reading this, and agreeing with the premise, could we be fooling ourselves? Should we be thinking more in terms of specialisation and leave this sci-fi to just fantasy (unlike most other scifi which seems to form next years new ideas for gadgets... except lightsabers which still disappoints me).
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #2
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    I found that article quite interesting, especially the GPS aspect since I've noted a change in my own driving since we bought one. Having moved to a new part of the country, it's been very helpful to prevent me from getting lost somewhere. However, if I only do what it tells me to do, following verbal instructions, I seem to pay less attention to the landmarks and other information I would typically note as a way to "learn" my new route. With the GPS, it seems to take me 4 or 5 trips to really consolidate the route in my memory, as opposed to when I would use a map and pre-plan my trip, driving it only once or twice making the memory "solid".

    Fascinating. Almost counter-intuitive. The easier it becomes, the less our brains integrate and learn.

    As for Star Trek, I always considered that each person on the ship still had a specialty area, and only a few individuals were expected to have a wider breadth of knowledge. Plus, in considering the ramifications of the Universal Mind ... the more that is known expands the possibility to learn more of the unknown. Thus opening the Future mind to a greater and greater expansion of intellectual capacity as the foundation is deeper and broader.

    Thanks for the article!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #3
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Te
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    The article brings up an age-old question. People fear technology. Fearing technology is the only real way of becoming useless. It's better to accept it, and continue growing your own knowledge and understanding of the world and how things work. It keeps you adaptable.
    You lose.

    _______

    RCOEI
    Melancholic-Choleric
    Respectful Leader

    Johari Window|Nohari Window

  4. #4
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    BBC News - How good software makes us stupid

    Not to over excite the geeks but I always wondered at Star Trek. Not because of all the technology or any advisor/ weirdo's cleavage but simply at the breadth of knowledge each person had.

    To know advanced mathematics and physics in excess of what our professors know today and yet also be able to do botany, martial arts and say basket weaving. I spent a whole load of time considering how this was possible when you think that they come out of the academy at what seems like 21 or so. I eventually figured that advances in teaching techniques and the ability to computerise large parts of the process would help. It was a simple solution but, in my defence, for an unquantified and ill defined question.

    Reading this, and agreeing with the premise, could we be fooling ourselves? Should we be thinking more in terms of specialisation and leave this sci-fi to just fantasy (unlike most other scifi which seems to form next years new ideas for gadgets... except lightsabers which still disappoints me).
    I find your post more interesting than the article, so I'll comment on that instead. Overall I think our education could be more advanced somewhat like the people in Star Trek. I'm not sure the results of it are quite the same just like the cell phone is not exactly the same as the Star Trek communicators. However I think as an underlying principle our education could be much more advanced than it is now.

    The majority of education in the modern world is public. While I appreciate how everyone has access to modern education, it also has the side effect of inhibiting innovation. Innovation comes out of a profit incentive, and there isn't much of a profit incentive in education.

    In the absence of a profit incentive, the motivation becomes keeping up with some kind of standard. But people are gradually seeing eduation standards as more and more arbitrary. This is because the modern world is changing rapidly, but education is changing slowly. Our modern education is not equipped to keep up with the modern world. So I think there is a lot of room for improvement and innovation there, but I'm not sure if we will ever see it as long as the majority of education is public.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  5. #5
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I found that article quite interesting, especially the GPS aspect since I've noted a change in my own driving since we bought one. Having moved to a new part of the country, it's been very helpful to prevent me from getting lost somewhere. However, if I only do what it tells me to do, following verbal instructions, I seem to pay less attention to the landmarks and other information I would typically note as a way to "learn" my new route. With the GPS, it seems to take me 4 or 5 trips to really consolidate the route in my memory, as opposed to when I would use a map and pre-plan my trip, driving it only once or twice making the memory "solid".
    I'd never noticed that facet but come to think of it yeah...

    Right I'm binning the SatNav... I've got my phone as backup anyhow
    Fascinating. Almost counter-intuitive. The easier it becomes, the less our brains integrate and learn.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    As for Star Trek, I always considered that each person on the ship still had a specialty area, and only a few individuals were expected to have a wider breadth of knowledge.
    Well that's the thing, each person seems well versed in science but has hobbies which would flaw all but geniuses and it's a whole crew of them. Okay there's a certain amount of "larger than life" at work there but I'd reckon most astronauts aren't as widely educated and that to a certain degree it would be required to make space travel of that scale viable.

    It's a kids argument piece really to use such pop culture reference but it's not bad shorthand imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Plus, in considering the ramifications of the Universal Mind ... the more that is known expands the possibility to learn more of the unknown. Thus opening the Future mind to a greater and greater expansion of intellectual capacity as the foundation is deeper and broader.
    Universal mind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    That universal mind?

    Not sure I understand right.

    On an intuitive understanding alone, wouldn't higher knowledge rely on a foundation of knowledge and thus (using Mr Holmes theory of attic space) the more high level areas of knowledge you try to remember or master, the less space you have left for the foundation knowledge. I'm sure you're familiar with the problem of well educated low smarts people. They tend to fall over things reinforcing the Holmes theory that if you don't manage your attic space carefully you'll forget how to walk.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks for the article!
    You're welcome. It's one of the few things which brought me back here, the opportunity to dissect some of the things I've been reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    The article brings up an age-old question. People fear technology. Fearing technology is the only real way of becoming useless. It's better to accept it, and continue growing your own knowledge and understanding of the world and how things work. It keeps you adaptable.
    Blindly walking forward is no better though. Progression must be maintained but must also be compared and contrasted to what went before to ensure it truly is advancement and not just a long curve into a nose dive.

    Also advancement of technology is not necessarily advancement in human beings.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I find your post more interesting than the article, so I'll comment on that instead.
    What ever fires your laser sir.
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Overall I think our education could be more advanced somewhat like the people in Star Trek. I'm not sure the results of it are quite the same just like the cell phone is not exactly the same as the Star Trek communicators. However I think as an underlying principle our education could be much more advanced than it is now.

    The majority of education in the modern world is public. While I appreciate how everyone has access to modern education, it also has the side effect of inhibiting innovation. Innovation comes out of a profit incentive, and there isn't much of a profit incentive in education.

    In the absence of a profit incentive, the motivation becomes keeping up with some kind of standard. But people are gradually seeing eduation standards as more and more arbitrary. This is because the modern world is changing rapidly, but education is changing slowly. Our modern education is not equipped to keep up with the modern world. So I think there is a lot of room for improvement and innovation there, but I'm not sure if we will ever see it as long as the majority of education is public.
    Whoa!!!!!

    You did NOT just mention innovation and education near each other!!! You want the education system to THINK???? But that's why they got into education. They've already done the whole course so they don't have to think!

    I think there were a few who suggested thought but they got life in detention for their efforts.

    The education system has to have accreditation methods... for some reason. To have such accreditation you have to have a body who decides who and what is accredited. To do that you need people who are accredited already and this is only achieved by their forebearers being accredited. Now of course a career lasts what forty years? So the guy in charge is what something like 30 years behind on that final exam. Over his time small changes have been made but he can't sit by and let his subject be warped too much. He got into maths to teach maths not some new funky punk version for kids so he'll keep it more like the maths he recognises. It's human nature.

    Until you kill off the antiquated and obsolete concept of certificates from accrediting bodies and the exams and gradings which gets dragged behind it, you'll never really progress with education.

    Oh that and they'd have to recognise that not every last frickin nutter frothing person is a bloomin SJ and modify their teaching formats!!!!!!! :steam:
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #6
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    If the amount of what we can perceive at any given time is limited, than allowing software to perceive rudementary information for us, it will leave us with the capacity to perceive beyond the rudementary.

    Therefor, I do not agree with the statement that software makes us dumb.

    I agree that if you get used to a GPS, you will miss out on information you would normally pay attention too. But now that you don't need to pay attention to it, because your gps does the work for you, you will have much more eyes for the traffic and the situation on the road itself, get to your destination quicker, not be a strain on people tailing you as you're driving 10 miles an hour trying to locate the right number on the street you need to be, etc. In other words, you are a more intelligent being alltogether allowing the GPS to effeciently take over part of your perception.

    In short, good software expands our perceptive range and is therefor making us more intelligent.

    Try and refute this if you can. I do know I can not. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  7. #7
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    If the amount of what we can perceive at any given time is limited, than allowing software to perceive rudementary information for us, it will leave us with the capacity to perceive beyond the rudementary.

    Therefor, I do not agree with the statement that software makes us dumb.

    I agree that if you get used to a GPS, you will miss out on information you would normally pay attention too. But now that you don't need to pay attention to it, because your gps does the work for you, you will have much more eyes for the traffic and the situation on the road itself, get to your destination quicker, not be a strain on people tailing you as you're driving 10 miles an hour trying to locate the right number on the street you need to be, etc. In other words, you are a more intelligent being alltogether allowing the GPS to effeciently take over part of your perception.

    In short, good software expands our perceptive range and is therefor making us more intelligent.

    Try and refute this if you can. I do know I can not. :P
    You're wrong.


    Seriously though, what can be perceived and understood without foundation knowledge?

    What is calculus without addition?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #8
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    Aeon
    Enneagram
    10w so
    Socionics
    LOL
    Posts
    1,366

    Default

    The way the brain deals with tools is as an extension of our limbs or other senses. If we come to depend on a tool, then to remove said tool is akin to a disabling condition. Even if the magnitude of the effect is a little smaller since the functional use of the tool is lower than that of our senses for example.

    I don't use a GPS for route planning though, as the algorithm does not choose the routes that seem most reasonable to me. (though the Australian systems may lack the sophistication or degree of optimisation of European systems).

  9. #9
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Architectonic View Post
    The way the brain deals with tools is as an extension of our limbs or other senses. If we come to depend on a tool, then to remove said tool is akin to a disabling condition. Even if the magnitude of the effect is a little smaller since the functional use of the tool is lower than that of our senses for example.

    I don't use a GPS for route planning though, as the algorithm does not choose the routes that seem most reasonable to me. (though the Australian systems may lack the sophistication or degree of optimisation of European systems).
    My immediate first thought is of a SatNav voice simply saying "Proceed a thousand miles and then turn right at The Bush".

    Well put though, once removed people would miss their opposable thumbs no? Some tools we become dependant upon and it only takes a camping trip to prove this theory out.

    That is a real camping trip not one where there's so many gadgets involved that all you lack is running water...
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #10
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Whoa!!!!!

    You did NOT just mention innovation and education near each other!!! You want the education system to THINK???? But that's why they got into education. They've already done the whole course so they don't have to think!

    I think there were a few who suggested thought but they got life in detention for their efforts.

    The education system has to have accreditation methods... for some reason. To have such accreditation you have to have a body who decides who and what is accredited. To do that you need people who are accredited already and this is only achieved by their forebearers being accredited. Now of course a career lasts what forty years? So the guy in charge is what something like 30 years behind on that final exam. Over his time small changes have been made but he can't sit by and let his subject be warped too much. He got into maths to teach maths not some new funky punk version for kids so he'll keep it more like the maths he recognises. It's human nature.

    Until you kill off the antiquated and obsolete concept of certificates from accrediting bodies and the exams and gradings which gets dragged behind it, you'll never really progress with education.

    Oh that and they'd have to recognise that not every last frickin nutter frothing person is a bloomin SJ and modify their teaching formats!!!!!!! :steam:
    According to the business books I've been reading lately an industry (including education) puts standards into place once they see performance has become "good enough". Standars usually aren't put into place when most people want improvements.

    In the case of education grading and other standards were put into place when education really was "good enough". However society has evolved a lot since those standards were put into place. Education is not good enough anymore. Not only is there room for improvement, but there is a lot of desire for improvement. However there isn't much profit incentive for improvement.

    Overall I think there will be some type of improvements in education, but they won't come from within the normal official channels. At some point some type of educators from the unofficial channels will find a way to make money because they are doing a much better job at teaching people what they need to know. Then the official system will either take note and change or lose all of its students.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

Similar Threads

  1. Video: Andrew Solomon: How the worst moments in our lives make us who we are
    By Eilonwy in forum Typology Videos and RSS Feeds
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-12-2014, 07:24 AM
  2. How good are you at spotting a fake smile?
    By Dali in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-19-2008, 10:48 AM
  3. Do we make soceity or does Soceity make us?
    By SparklingImpediments in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 09-09-2008, 12:26 AM
  4. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 09-15-2007, 07:50 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO