User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 67

  1. #41
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5
    Posts
    699

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    You know what they say, the plural of anecdote is not data.
    Aaah yes but data believes that .2 of a person is a real number!
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  2. #42
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    If you want to cite actual articles (read: real evidence), then that's fine. I was merely speculating that the increase in numbers could be due to an increased ability to diagnose the disorder.

    Originally, your only evidence to the contrary was your personal experience, and personal experience is subject to a whole slew of personal biases. Your only counter to personal experience being inaccurate was something along the lines of "well I know that my personal experience is not subject to bias." Circular a bit? Yes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Anecdotes turn into case studies which become the basis of the decision of which (variables/parameters/observables) are gathered to form "data". If you pick the wrong parameter to observe, your data is meaningless.
    We form hypotheses based off of anecdotes, sure. However, real science does not rely on personal anecdotes for evidence. It relies on repeated, controlled experiments and statistical analysis.

    When observing something as complex as a human with a developmental disorder, mental illness or even a personality typing theory, the initial anecdotes form the foundation. Not many folks are better suited to (people watching/behavioral trend identification) than an ENFP. The error rate will end up fairly high, but an enfp will see things an NT will miss. Their anecdotal observations are (complementary/supplementary/essential) to pure analysis of gathered data.
    Aside from the fact that I really don't agree with the bolded, this alleged skilled area of ENFPs (and lack of skill in NTs) has absolutely nothing to do with how credible GemPOP's assertion was. Until Gem provided actual evidence in the form of a cited article (which I've yet to really read, but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming that it's credible), his/her claims that autism cases have indeed increased based on his/her own experience were completely off par with how science really works.

    Perhaps he/she formed this theory that autism cases increased based on his/her own experience, but using personal experience as evidence is ridiculous.

    Regardless of how good ENFPs or NTs or anyone is at behavioral trends through people watching, controlled, structured, scientific experiments are still better and thus the only reasonable form of evidence we can use in these kinds of discussions.

  3. #43
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7W6 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    4,797

    Default

    It's very difficult to discuss something with someone who is being so presumptious and not reading the full posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    If you want to cite actual articles (read: real evidence), then that's fine. I was merely speculating that the increase in numbers could be due to an increased ability to diagnose the disorder..
    I did site a link as what you term as real evidence, i sited it just befor i spoke of personal experience as i like to combine the two... check post 10....
    Study: Childhood Rise in Autism Cases Real




    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Originally, your only evidence to the contrary was your personal experience, and personal experience is subject to a whole slew of personal biases. Your only counter to personal experience being inaccurate was something along the lines of "well I know that my personal experience is not subject to bias." Circular a bit? Yes.....
    See above


    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    We form hypotheses based off of anecdotes, sure. However, real science does not rely on personal anecdotes for evidence. It relies on repeated, controlled experiments and statistical analysis.
    Again presumption because i have theorizing all through the thread, infact the op poses a question, i have not once anywhere stated i know all the answers. The only thing i am sure of is a rise in cases, theres many many studies that can back that up, Including studies by the NIH who you mentioned yourself. I think that actually it's you who are insinuating you know all the answers when quite obviously you don't.




    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Regardless of how good ENFPs or NTs or anyone is at behavioral trends through people watching, controlled, structured, scientific experiments are still better and thus the only reasonable form of evidence we can use in these kinds of discussions.
    Well now that would just make a huge proportion of all threads null and void.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  4. #44
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    It's very difficult to discuss something with someone who is being so presumptious and not reading the full posts.

    I did site a link as what you term as real evidence, i sited it just befor i spoke of personal experience as i like to combine the two... check post 10....
    Study: Childhood Rise in Autism Cases Real
    You cited a link that showed evidence that autism cases are increasing, but you never once cited evidence to counter Ivy's and my claims that ASD cases may be rising due to enhanced diagnostic abilities, not an actual increase in people with the disorder. Your initial response to that claim was this:

    It used to be the case when my child was first diagnosed (5 years ago)that when we went to the playground (or anywhere out) it seemed that i was the only one around, with few exceptions, with a child with autism. Even in the last several years that amount has dramatically increased, i now see many children with asd, i talk to people and everyone i speak to now knows a child with autism.
    I don't believe this is due simply to diagnostic criteria or indeed better awareness, it seems to me there is a boom, becoming ever more frequent.
    along with:

    So at age 15 i was aware of asd and had no other experience what so ever with anyone else with asd for many years. 5 years ago when i was most alert i met very few people with asd but did occaisionally meet parents of children with asd. Now 5 years on when i am not watching all the kids in the playground to see signs i meet them all over the place. This is not due to awareness this is due to a rise in asd cases.
    I mean seriously, ?!?!???...

    Until post #39, you gave no articles that tackled the issue of enhanced diagnostic capabilities. The article that you are referring to above even stated that they don't know why the numbers are increasing, implying that there is room for a number of different reasons/interpretations.

    So, your original counter to us stating that it's due to enhanced diagnosis was indeed pure anecdote, subject to the biases that come along with your own perception.

    The first real evidence, outside of personal anecdote was not until post 39, which I acknowledged. My main qualm with your argument is that you seemed to think that your narrow personal experience is evidence enough to form an argument regarding a widespread issue.

    Again presumption because i have theorizing all through the thread, infact the op poses a question, i have not once anywhere stated i know all the answers. The only thing i am sure of is a rise in cases, theres many many studies that can back that up, Including studies by the NIH who you mentioned yourself. I think that actually it's you who are insinuating you know all the answers when quite obviously you don't.
    The only thing I have claimed in this thread is that your anecdotal evidence is weak and not very convincing and that science does not work on personal anecdotes.

    I have made zero claims about why ASD cases are increasing, and I will be the first to admit that I don't know much about ASD statistics at all; it's just not an issue I'm well-versed in. I have a completely open mind about this thread and the reasons as to why the cases may be increasing, but I'm not about to use one person's personal perception as evidence to help me form my conclusion regarding the issue.

    Well now that would just make a huge proportion of all threads null and void.
    Most people don't cite personal experience as evidence in a scientific issue. When science is concerned, often there are links posted.

    I'm just saying that if you want to do any convincing here and have a solid argument, you shouldn't use the claim that you personally witness it so it must be true on a wider scale.

    Anyway, you seem to be getting pretty offended, and that doesn't make too much sense to me, so I'm done.

  5. #45
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,910

    Default

    It can't be natural selection if the it's both true that the autism inducing genes originate with the autistic patients, and that autistic people are less likely to reproduce. Also, does autism pass on to children of autistic people? None of the necessary components for inheritance seem to be involved here.

    This is something emergent. Likely a chemical influence of some sort.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #46
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It can't be natural selection if the it's both true that the autism inducing genes originate with the autistic patients, and that autistic people are less likely to reproduce. Also, does autism pass on to children of autistic people? None of the necessary components for inheritance seem to be involved here.

    This is something emergent. Likely a chemical influence of some sort.
    If there is a genetic component, as is suggested in the OP's article, then there could be a hereditary one (though the genetic component that is referenced in the OP isn't necessarily associated with inheritance). Also, autistic people could be less likely to reproduce, and inheritance could still be involved and could still be causally linked. If the risk of being a parent to an ASD child is prevalent within a family tree, then this could be due to inheritance, and it wouldn't require that the ASD children themselves are reproducing. The OP in no way implies that inheritance is out of the question.

    It could be something chemical with the ASD patients themselves (mutations can happen as a result of environment), but judging by the fact that we are talking about CNVs, it would likely be something going on (externally or not) with the parents that affects their haploid cells prior to conception or perhaps some genetic factor that causes parents to have issues with their haploid production.

    Down syndrome occurs because the mother's eggs undergo faulty meiosis, and the risk of faulty meiosis to make haploid cells increases with age. This CNV thing could be something similar (or again, it could be genetic), whether it's due to age, chemicals, etc. Your post doesn't necessarily deduce down to "It's probably chemical", so if that's what you were going for, then it didn't work.

  7. #47
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7W6 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    4,797

    Default

    Ugh, this is becomming complicated.



    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    You cited a link that showed evidence that autism cases are increasing, but you never once cited evidence to counter Ivy's and my claims that ASD cases may be rising due to enhanced diagnostic abilities, not an actual increase in people with the disorder. Your initial response to that claim was this::
    Did you read this part of the link in post 10
    "Since the 1990s, there's been a dramatic increase in autismautism among school-age children."
    I was countering an argument that Ivy stated just as many Adults are being diagnosed.

    There was also this part of the link which counters the wider diagnostic argument

    "Research has suggested that the rise in autism could be largely explained by changes in diagnosis, with children who might have been classified as mentally retarded or speech impaired before the 1990s now being classified as autistic.

    Lead researcher Craig J. Newschaffer, PhD, says the Department of Education figures do not show this, but he adds that the increase in autism may never be fully understood."


    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    along with:



    I mean seriously, ?!?!???...::
    As previously stated i used personal experience along with stats, hopefully that is clearer for you now.



    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Until post #39, you gave no articles that tackled the issue of enhanced diagnostic capabilities. The article that you are referring to above even stated that they don't know why the numbers are increasing, implying that there is room for a number of different reasons/interpretations.
    Check again

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    So, your original counter to us stating that it's due to enhanced diagnosis was indeed pure anecdote, subject to the biases that come along with your own perception..
    and check again

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    The first real evidence, outside of personal anecdote was not until post 39, which I acknowledged. My main qualm with your argument is that you seemed to think that your narrow personal experience is evidence enough to form an argument regarding a widespread issue. ..
    Ugh, do i really have to say it...



    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    The only thing I have claimed in this thread is that your anecdotal evidence is weak and not very convincing and that science does not work on personal anecdotes. ..


    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I have made zero claims about why ASD cases are increasing, and I will be the first to admit that I don't know much about ASD statistics at all; it's just not an issue I'm well-versed in. I have a completely open mind about this thread and the reasons as to why the cases may be increasing, but I'm not about to use one person's personal perception as evidence to help me form my conclusion regarding the issue. ..
    But, You just said this
    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    but you never once cited evidence to counter Ivy's and my claims that ASD cases may be rising due to enhanced diagnostic abilities, not an actual increase in people with the disorder..

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Most people don't cite personal experience as evidence in a scientific issue. When science is concerned, often there are links posted...
    There are links posted and i cited personal experience simply because it's relative.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I'm just saying that if you want to do any convincing here and have a solid argument, you shouldn't use the claim that you personally witness it so it must be true on a wider scale....
    I'm really not trying to convince anyone, the idea of this thread was to discuss if there are evolutionary connections with autism.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Anyway, you seem to be getting pretty offended, and that doesn't make too much sense to me, so I'm done.
    Yes i did get a little offended it's true, i don't have the cold rationalle many NT's possess. It was all your assumption which hacked me off to be honest, that and the fact you butted into something with a +1 without actually taking in the previous posts.
    Oh and the comment regarding the NIH which was really silly considering their own studies (the last two links i posted) state there IS a real rise in rates amoung children which can NOT be due solely to wider diagnostics.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #48
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    Yes i did get a little offended it's true, i don't have the cold rationalle many NT's possess. It was all your assumption which hacked me off to be honest, that and the fact you butted into something with a +1 without actually taking in the previous posts.
    Oh and the comment regarding the NIH which was really silly considering their own studies (the last two links i posted) state there IS a real rise in rates amoung children which can NOT be due solely to wider diagnostics.
    Yes, but I guarantee you that the NIH went about their studies much differently than you and did not rely on personal experience/bias for evidence.

    (clearly you still don't really understand my critique here, if that's one of your counters)

    And regarding the things of mine that you've bolded, trying to make me appear contradictory, the key word here is "may." I claimed a possibility, not a personal theory of mine. The possibility that I "claimed" has nothing to do with what I believe, and it was not meant to be an outline of my general stance on this subject. I have remained open to any and all possibilities describing the alleged increase in ASD cases. Nice try though.

  9. #49
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7W6 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    4,797

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Yes, but I guarantee you that the NIH went about their studies much differently than you and did not rely on personal experience/bias for evidence.

    (clearly you still don't really understand my critique here, if that's one of your counters)

    And regarding the things of mine that you've bolded, trying to make me appear contradictory, the key word here is "may." I claimed a possibility, not a personal theory of mine. The possibility that I "claimed" has nothing to do with what I believe, and it was not meant to be an outline of my general stance on this subject. I have remained open to any and all possibilities describing the alleged increase in ASD cases. Nice try though.
    Ok so you have just avoided the whole point i made. If it makes you feel better, whatever.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  10. #50
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    1,690

    Default

    ^Likewise

Similar Threads

  1. If You Could Give a Gift to The Above Poster, what would it be?
    By Jacques Le Paul in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 07-19-2017, 10:37 AM
  2. Replies: 35
    Last Post: 04-15-2016, 08:49 PM
  3. What's this? What's this? Gay Scouts, oh gee, officially? Could it be?
    By Totenkindly in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 01-28-2013, 09:08 PM
  4. Replies: 88
    Last Post: 08-28-2012, 09:07 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO