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  1. #11
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    When you say "quantum fluctuations" you need an object that's fluctuating, to make "quantum fluctuations in _____." Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

  2. #12
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    By the way : does anybody have a say on people who reject the big bang theory (I mean phycisists who do, not intelligent design people or pro-lifers) ?

    There are various sources who try to disprove it like this one Why the Big Bang is Wrong

    ...but I'm not a phycisist myself, so I couldn't possibly tell. Which is why I'm asking..

  3. #13
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quantum fluctuation requires the existence of a system in which the uncertainty principle is applicable. As you've put it in the op, it is meaningless to speak of a time "before" the Big Bang. Quantum fluctuation explains why we thought that particles can escape from the event horizon, but I don't see how it effects the beginnings of time.

  4. #14
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    By the way : does anybody have a say on people who reject the big bang theory (I mean phycisists who do, not intelligent design people or pro-lifers) ?

    There are various sources who try to disprove it like this one Why the Big Bang is Wrong

    ...but I'm not a phycisist myself, so I couldn't possibly tell. Which is why I'm asking..
    The 'Big Bang' is simply a metaphor to imagine the unimaginable.

    And the 'Big Bang' is a particularly poor metaphor, for it provides a misleading picture of what we do know.

  5. #15
    Senior Member vince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The 'Big Bang' is simply a metaphor to imagine the unimaginable.

    And the 'Big Bang' is a particularly poor metaphor, for it provides a misleading picture of what we do know.
    yeah that's what I've been thinking all my life.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by vince View Post
    yeah that's what I've been thinking all my life.
    Yeah, we live in the middle sized world and the middle sized world is all we can imagine, while the universe is so big we can't imagine it, anymore than we imagine the quantum world which is so small we also cannot imagine it.

    And so we are thrown back on metaphor, as a metaphor is bridge between what we can imagine and what we can't imagine.

    This is a real problem as we can imagine astrology but not astronomy, and we can imagine MBTI but not psychometrics.

    So astrology, MBTI and religion are metaphors. And the big danger with metaphors is that we take them literally, but metaphors are not literally true.

    And the other interesting thing about metaphors is that, so far, computers can't make metaphors, only us.

    We are metaphor making animals, so in Socratic style we need to enquire into the nature of metaphor.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yeah, we live in the middle sized world and the middle sized world is all we can imagine, while the universe is so big we can't imagine it, anymore than we imagine the quantum world which is so small we also cannot imagine it.

    And so we are thrown back on metaphor, as a metaphor is bridge between what we can imagine and what we can't imagine.

    This is a real problem as we can imagine astrology but not astronomy, and we can imagine MBTI but not psychometrics.

    So astrology, MBTI and religion are metaphors. And the big danger with metaphors is that we take them literally, but metaphors are not literally true.

    And the other interesting thing about metaphors is that, so far, computers can't make metaphors, only us.

    We are metaphor making animals, so in Socratic style we need to enquire into the nature of metaphor.
    Do you think this is a trait of Ni?...speaking MBTI as I cant imagine psychometrics...have no clue what it is yet. I dont sense Si using metaphors, but speaking in "differences" as opposed to "carry over". Thikning INTP Si to be specific.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #18
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Quantum fluctuation requires the existence of a system in which the uncertainty principle is applicable.
    Yes, the uncertainty principle requires the existence of spacetime before hand and quantum mechanics itself is probably inappropriate in explaining what caused the big bang. To me, it seems some atheistic people try to use quantum mechanics to show that the universe could have been caused by a quantum fluctuation and therefore requires no "creator".

    I don't think the universe requires a creator either but I do think we need a more complete understanding of quantum mechanics and relativity before we can understand the creation of our universe.

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