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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    I smell Scott Kurtz here somewhere...

    EDIT: Hilbert finally checked in on the sister thread on INTPc.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    The brain itself is not a source of faith, the mind is. You can't see a mind.
    the mind is reducible to the brain. therefore the brain (or at least the parts of it that make up the mind) is also the source.

    unless you want to argue that the mind isn't reducible to the brain...but i've never seen that argument work out too well...

  3. #13
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    No, the big toe is clearly a more likely candidate.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #14
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I took JAVO to mean that faith might be something you do unconsciously or free of your cognitive processes, much in the way the "soul" or "spirit" of a human can be located no where concretely in the body, yet when the body dies, the spirit departs (have they not weighed people at point of death and noticed a loss in mass?) I don't think it's entirely unconnected from science but I do also think not everything is brain chemicals. That's just my take on it.
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  5. #15
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I took JAVO to mean that faith might be something you do unconsciously or free of your cognitive processes, much in the way the "soul" or "spirit" of a human can be located no where concretely in the body, yet when the body dies, the spirit departs (have they not weighed people at point of death and noticed a loss in mass?) I don't think it's entirely unconnected from science but I do also think not everything is brain chemicals. That's just my take on it.
    how could anything NOT be brain chemicals? (or just physical reactions)

    if you want to make the claim that the soul/mind/whatever isn't fully reducible to physical reactions, then you have to explain how something non-physical can have an effect on the physical world. a pretty impossible feat if you ask me.

  6. #16
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I suppose the explanation would require someone greater than myself to do it.

    Then again, we ARE speaking of faith, right?

    Faith is a hope based on something you have yet to see or receive. Faith isn't quantifiable. As you say, impossible. Why would a brain concoct something so useless? What bearing does it have on the survival of the entity it steers? (Anyone may answer that, by the way.)
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  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Faith is a hope based on something you have yet to see or receive. Faith isn't quantifiable. As you say, impossible. Why would a brain concoct something so useless? What bearing does it have on the survival of the entity it steers? (Anyone may answer that, by the way.)
    Faith isn't hope, however - it is belief for belief sake. We all use it everyday - faith the bridge won't fall, faith that the elevator won't fall... We don't do a risk measurement for everything and so forth. It can be more - a coping mechanism (denial or justification - such as bad things are planned, etc), excusism (I act the way I do because I was taught to, but it's right because of...) and so forth, but in general it is simply a form of belief. For example, saying "I have faith that you won't cheat on me" generally means "I don't believe you will cheat on me even though I have no reason to know if you will". This is just for self-protection. The choice to believe on over the other is a defensive mechanism. Religion is often used in a similar way.

    In that sense, faith is very quantifiable and fits in quite well with the way humans cope with the external world.

  8. #18
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    if you want to make the claim that the soul/mind/whatever isn't fully reducible to physical reactions, then you have to explain how something non-physical can have an effect on the physical world. a pretty impossible feat if you ask me.
    Measure out for me about six ounces of justice, and I'll grant your premise.

  9. #19
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Faith is a hope based on something you have yet to see or receive. Faith isn't quantifiable. As you say, impossible. Why would a brain concoct something so useless? What bearing does it have on the survival of the entity it steers? (Anyone may answer that, by the way.)
    why is faith not quantifiable? and why do you say it would be useless for the brain?

    here's a little argument:
    premise 1: faith affects behavior
    premise 2: behavior is physical
    premise 3: physical things are only affected by physical things
    step 1: faith affects behavior ----> faith affects (something physical)
    conclusion: because of premise 3, faith is physical

    i'll guess right now you'll challenge my 3rd premise. can you think of a counterexample?

  10. #20
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Measure out for me about six ounces of justice, and I'll grant your premise.
    what are you talking about?

    when i say everything's physical, i do not mean everything is an object we can see or touch. but there must be some configuration of neurons in our brain that define the concept of justice (it's obviously a loose concept, but whatever), otherwise the concept/word 'justice' wouldn't exist.

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