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  1. #31
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So you have nothing scientific to back up your statements or engage in the conversation with. Thanks for clarifying that.
    I'm not sure what this is, besides wanting to get the last word, you dont want to talk to me on this topic, its too much trouble, so you find a convenient way of closing it down or shutting me out. At the moment its science.

    If I understood what exactly science is being used to justify, seeing as its supposedly value neutral and all, I could probably find scientific sources, at which point you'd probably say its pseudo-science, not science at all or reframe the debate again, so it wouldnt be science but something else I need to provide in order to participate or validate my points.

    Jennifer I've debated with the best of them, yourself included, and I know the form. Its a roundabout way of saying "Yeah, who asked you", which is alright. Maybe there's no pont exchanging views or sharing views if no consensus or agreement can be reached, I dont see it that way but that's alright too.

  2. #32
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've heard the biochemical developmental argument about sexuality determinism before. My thoughts on this go something like this:- [...]
    Aww, Lark... who needs a big gay hug?

    Seriously, though, I don't think the cause of homosexuality should effect the rightness or wrongness of it. Certainly belief in Christianity is non-genetic and not controlled by hormone levels in the womb, but I don't think we should be persecuting Christians and trying to convince them to become non-Christian. Anyway, we have many threads on the morality/ethics of homosexuality, so let's move the discussion there if you want to continue it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Science shouldn't get involved in politics (and vice versa).
    Really? So we shouldn't study policy scientifically to figure out the best outcomes for our money? For example, the best ways of fighting disease, or poverty or illiteracy? Or what gives the most bang for the buck when funding education?

    It seems like empirical studies are exactly what's needed in many cases. While not every macro-scale policy is easy to test on a smaller level, plenty of policies are testable in randomized, small-scale ways. Seems like it's foolish we don't do more of that.

    Of course, people's personal agendas get mixed in, and that's why peer review and reproducibility is important. We're imperfect, biased creatures... but I don't think that means we should throw in the towel on trying to make policy effective. I do understand the point that the personal political views of scientists shouldn't directly be the basis of policy.


    And, back on topic... I think studies have found the finger length effect to be real, but there's also a genetic component. So, once again, it's not as clear cut as it might be.

  3. #33
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Really? So we shouldn't study policy scientifically to figure out the best outcomes for our money? For example, the best ways of fighting disease, or poverty or illiteracy? Or what gives the most bang for the buck when funding education?

    It seems like empirical studies are exactly what's needed in many cases. While not every macro-scale policy is easy to test on a smaller level, plenty of policies are testable in randomized, small-scale ways. Seems like it's foolish we don't do more of that.

    Of course, people's personal agendas get mixed in, and that's why peer review and reproducibility is important. We're imperfect, biased creatures... but I don't think that means we should throw in the towel on trying to make policy effective. I do understand the point that the personal political views of scientists shouldn't directly be the basis of policy.
    I'm not talking about political science. (doh!) I'm talking about basic research.
    I think you know what I meant though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If I understood what exactly science is being used to justify, seeing as its supposedly value neutral and all, I could probably find scientific sources, at which point you'd probably say its pseudo-science, not science at all or reframe the debate again, so it wouldnt be science but something else I need to provide in order to participate or validate my points.
    Instead of guessing what she'd do, why don't you find some and get back to us?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #34
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I'm not talking about political science. (doh!) I'm talking about basic research.
    I think you know what I meant though.
    I really wasn't sure exactly what you meant. I seems like research from sociology would be important shaping all kinds of government policy. Information on climatology and biology should effect things like pollution standards. Medical research should influence what kinds of treatments get recommended, etc, etc. Certainly politics has an effect on what kinds of research gets funded (but one hopes there's scientific and not just ideological input into that process as well).

    I agree that politics shouldn't shape the results of scientific studies, though... is that what you meant? And science is not morality, in and of itself (although I think some would argue that it should be).

  5. #35
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Certainly politics has an effect on what kinds of research gets funded (but one hopes there's scientific and not just ideological input into that process as well).

    I agree that politics shouldn't shape the results of scientific studies, though... is that what you meant? And science is not morality, in and of itself (although I think some would argue that it should be).
    If politics shape the results it isn't science, it's propaganda. (Arguably, the funding either, depending on the integrity of the scientists involved).

    Basic research should preoccupy itself with what is and why it is, not what should be or how people might react to what is.

    That, inelegantly, is what I meant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #36
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    If politics shape the results it isn't science, it's propaganda. (Arguably, the funding either, depending on the integrity of the scientists involved).

    Basic research should preoccupy itself with what is and why it is, not what should be or how people might react to what is.

    That, inelegantly, is what I meant.
    Thanks... that clarifies things a lot.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    The above article claims that birth order accounts for about 1/7th of the prevalence of homosexuality in men. (Of course, I'm a gay identical twin with two straight older brothers and a straight twin brother... still don't know why I turned out gay and my twin turned out straight.)
    Epigenetics can explain a lot of questions we can't solve using genetics. There's little known about the subject yet though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Also, is this for real?

    It didnt occur to me until I'd contributed already but there are lots of folk myths about digital lengths and abnormality or even "evil", vampires and werewolves in some stories where detectable by the measurement of digits.

    Isnt this likely to result in prejudice and bullying? I know in NI there where problems in the schools when the folk myths about the space between eyes could be used to tell which faith community people belonged to became resurgent (I shit you not).
    There's always a chance of things like these escalating into stereotyping, we should look out for that. But realistically, if the link between 2D:4D and homosexuality is statistically significant how is it not worth looking into that? The subject itself is only bad if you put a negative value judgement on it.

    Here are some other topics I find worth investigating by science for you to frown upon:
    Race and intelligence
    Eugenics
    (removed)

  8. #38
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Thanks... that clarifies things a lot.
    Heh.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

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  9. #39
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    Here are some other topics I find worth investigating by science for you to frown upon:
    Race and intelligence
    Eugenics
    No. Eugenics isn't science, it's social policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #40
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    No. Eugenics isn't science, it's social policy.
    Finally, the chipmunk says something I agree with, mostly.

    It is non-science/pseudo-science.

    As for racial IQ, please.

    Also, we are getting off-topic.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



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