User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 114

  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've heard the biochemical developmental argument about sexuality determinism before. My thoughts on this go something like this:-

    - I do wonder following Magic Porefin (spelling) mentioning it on another thread but corresponding to consideration of psychology and development that the discussion had moved toward sociobiological determinism vs. memetics determinism. I think this could be important in the consideration of the determinants of sexuality as much as determinants of other psychology or behaviour. Personally as a cultural theorist I think it has more to do with it than hard sociobiological determinism.

    - I suspect that considering the determinants of sexuality will be more controversial than perhaps considering the determinants of criminality or deviance. Its a highly politicised topic now and totally a subject of kultur kampf. The mixed feelings of fans of homosexuality about origins or determinants of sexuality, ie innateness at one time affirmed at another condemned, can generally not be acknowledged.

    - The argument that sexuality, particularly male or female homosexuality, is determined by the biochemistry of the womb, when I have heard it deployed in Northern Ireland, has generally been done in a manner which on the one hand exhonorates males and fathers of any "blame" for conceiving a homosexual son or daughter, or possible closet orientation. There's an implication there I'm sure that no one friendly to homosexuality or wishing to promote it as a norm would appreciate, it's pretty much still considered abnormal and its something that people accept provided they dont feel responsible for it.

    - This has meant that campaigners who once affirmed biochemical or sociobiological explanations of innateness or "inborn" homosexual orientations in confronting "naturalistic fallacies" are having second thoughts. Innateness or biological explanations failing to result in approval, acceptance and support, arguably the real goal of the homosexual identity groups, they arent as useful.
    Let me clarify what seems to be the tone here:

    There are multiple variables involved in the development of any straight or homosexual or gendered psychology.

    This thread is an exploration of one such variable from a hormonal/physical standpoint... not a political one, nor a religious one. I don't think anyone here has so far given a darn about "justifying homosexuality." It's interesting to discuss some things that might contribute to it, but I'm not sure anyone has said androgen excesses in the woman is the definitive contribution. However, it might easily have some sort of effect upon it.

    You could just deal with what is being discussed, and agree/refute from a scientific standpoint which was the original angle of this thread, rather than consistently dragging into conversation a religio-political angle as your primary basis.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,635

    Default

    BTW when I said was this real, it just smacks of palmistry and the like, I think those things are fun but hardly hard science.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Let me clarify what seems to be the tone here:

    There are multiple variables involved in the development of any straight or homosexual or gendered psychology.

    This thread is an exploration of one such variable from a hormonal/physical standpoint... not a political one, nor a religious one. I don't think anyone here has so far given a darn about "justifying homosexuality." It's interesting to discuss some things that might contribute to it, but I'm not sure anyone has said androgen excesses in the woman is the definitive contribution. However, it might easily have some sort of effect upon it.

    You could just deal with what is being discussed, and agree/refute from a scientific standpoint which was the original angle of this thread, rather than consistently dragging into conversation a religio-political angle as your primary basis.
    Alright.

    I just gave my thoughts on the matter, imagined it was an open thread and wasnt aiming to track the conversation into justifying anything. Just sharing how information about the origins of sexual orientation are used.

    I wasnt dragging the conversation into any religio-political angle but you've consistently mentioned that in relation to my contribution to these threads, I think that's about your filters Jennifer not mine, I'm not the Christian Right foe I think you have me framed as but anyway.

    Grand. Homosexuality is determined in the womb. Its hormonal then. Well, suppose that's it then.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    BTW when I said was this real, it just smacks of palmistry and the like, I think those things are fun but hardly hard science.
    Then discuss scientific studies that show that there is no correlation between finger length and androgen catalyzation of masculine physical and mental/behavioral traits.

    What you think something "smacks of" is irrelevant to the type of discussion, which has involved scientific studies from Post #1. To prove your viewpoint has validity, use science to either show the opposite viewpoint from the OP, or use science to debunk the studies being used as reference.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    1,158

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Grand. Homosexuality is determined in the womb. Its hormonal then. Well, suppose that's it then.
    Har, har, hardy, har-har.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Then discuss scientific studies that show that there is no correlation between finger length and androgen catalyzation of masculine physical and mental/behavioral traits.

    What you think something "smacks of" is irrelevant to the type of discussion, which has involved scientific studies from Post #1. To prove your viewpoint has validity, use science to either show the opposite viewpoint from the OP, or use science to debunk the studies being used as reference.
    Oh alright, I didnt read all this in any of the board standards about participation in the threads. That'll do. I'm glad to know my views are irrelevent and at this point I dont know what you're suggesting is scientific or not but its clear you've got the view that science is value neutral. That's alright. You probably dont want to talk about that either.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,635

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    Har, har, hardy, har-har.
    What? Am I missing the point?

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Oh alright, I didnt read all this in any of the board standards about participation in the threads. That'll do. I'm glad to know my views are irrelevent and at this point I dont know what you're suggesting is scientific or not but its clear you've got the view that science is value neutral. That's alright. You probably dont want to talk about that either.
    So you have nothing scientific to back up your statements or engage in the conversation with. Thanks for clarifying that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Socionics
    INFP
    Posts
    279

    Default

    This thread might be becoming kinda hurtful to people, I understand that this is a controversial topic for some people, but I'd really like to keep the peace here if at all possible, sorry to sound like a pain

  10. #30
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Really? How? What do you mean?
    I tried to think of a way to state it more plainly but could not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    BTW when I said was this real, it just smacks of palmistry and the like, I think those things are fun but hardly hard science.
    They're not, but a lot of "hard science" has been done in this field.
    Just wiki it.

    2D:4D digit ratio

    The best, non-invasive, marker of prenatal hormone exposure is the digit ratio of the second and fourth finger lengths (2D:4D ratio), a known sexually dimorphic measure (males showing lower ratios than females). Patients with androgen over-exposure (such as in congenital adrenal hyperplasia) show lower 2D:4D ratios,[3][4] providing evidence linking prenatal androgen exposure as key to this feature. XY individuals with androgen insensitivity syndrome due to a dysfunctional gene for the androgen receptor present as women and have feminine digit ratios, as would be predicted if androgenic hormones affect digit ratios. This finding also demonstrates that the sex difference in digit ratio is unrelated to the Y chromosome per se.[5] Additionally, the 2D:4D ratio has been shown to be affected by variation in the androgen receptor gene in men.[6] The ratio of testosterone to estrogen in amniotic fluid has also been found to be negatively correlated with the 2D:4D ratio.[1]
    Independent studies indicate that homosexual women have masculinized (lower) digit ratios,[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16] and homosexual men show either hyper-masculinized or feminized ratios. These findings reinforce the prenatal androgen model - abnormal prenatal hormone exposure is related to the development of human homosexuality.[1]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

Similar Threads

  1. Finger length and testosterone
    By meanlittlechimp in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 81
    Last Post: 04-29-2009, 02:15 PM
  2. 4d?
    By Nocapszy in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-16-2009, 11:18 PM
  3. What's you read:post ratio?
    By ajblaise in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 10-05-2008, 01:59 AM
  4. E/I Ratio
    By Sling in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 08-04-2008, 01:04 PM
  5. Analytic Skills & Finger Length
    By Recluse in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 10-29-2007, 12:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO