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  1. #11
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    Thanks Jennifer, you're amazingly helpful, I really appreciate it...The fact I couldn't find one for men means that you might have to invert it if you're a man...but lots of scientists say that it is non-conclusive in men apparently so...Thoughts?

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseHeartDothKnow View Post
    Thanks Jennifer, you're amazingly helpful, I really appreciate it...The fact I couldn't find one for men means that you might have to invert it if you're a man...but lots of scientists say that it is non-conclusive in men apparently so...Thoughts?
    Well, basically the ratio indicates the amount of androgens in the womb -- the taller the ring finger past the index finger, the more androgens. Androgens are dominant in male fetus development despite being produced by both sexes.

    IOW, you're already showing the pictures for more "masculinized" men -- it's the right-hand image.

    Here's another pic:



    Since we are holistic in nature, with lots of influences on our development and at many different stages in our development, we can't totally predict a total one-to-one between psychology and finger length and androgen quantity in utero ... however, there is at least at least some level of correlation. Males typically produce far more androgens in utero, and the androgens push a particular type of differentiation. But hormone levels might differ widely per individual for each gender, with their own bell curves.

    side note: My finger ratio resembles the middle image up in the earlier pic.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
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    There are 3 components of sexual identity:
    core gender identity (do you feel like a man or a woman)
    sexual orientation (which gender(s) are you sexually attracted to and
    gender role (behaviours culturally associated with a certain gender).

    There is a theory that the brain is masculinised in 3 stages (prenatally) by exposure to androgens. (The default brain is female).
    Complications at any of these stages lead to "abnormal" sexual identity.
    (eg XY individuals with androgen insensitivity may identify as female, XXs with adrenal dysfunction as male)

    The finger length thing is a marker for prenatal androgen exposure.
    PRENATAL AND PERINATAL ENVIRONMENT
    The turning point in our understanding of the effect of environmental factors in sexual orientation was generated by the work of Gunter Dorner. Probably because Dorner was based in East Berlin his pioneering research in the 1970s was not widely noticed (Dorner, 1972; Dorner, 1976; Dorner, 1977). Before Dorner there had been unsuccessful attempts to compare the hormonal profiles of adults expressing different sexual orientations. Dorner’s studies revealed the importance of the critical period when the sexual differentiation of the brain happens. While this critical period may vary slightly from one species to another, it is always around the time of birth.
    Dorner started with animal experiments. Male rats were castrated on the first day of life and were injected with male hormones when adults. These male rats expressed a complete inversion of sexual behaviour. In other words, being deprived of testosterone during the critical fetal period of sexual determination produced homosexual behaviour in their adult lives.

    What we know now about the hormonal profile of homosexuals fits perfectly with the hypothesis of a transitory lack of testosterone during the critical period. Homosexuals usually have the same level of total testosterone as heterosexuals, but their level of ‘free testosterone’ (testosterone that is not combined with other chemicals) is lower. The levels of pituitary hormones, which control testicular functions, are relatively high and so are the levels of oestrogens. It is important to realize is that if this hormonal profile were to be artificially reproduced in an adult, it would not give rise to homosexual behavior. When a fetus is faced with a lack of testosterone at the end of pregnancy it compensates for this by increasing secretions of pituitary hormones. At the same time as the fetus tries to increase the level of male hormones by a feedback mechanism, it increases in parallel the level of oestrogens. In fact, oestrogens increase the binding capacity of sexual hormones with proteins and lower the level of free testosterone.
    This raises the question of how and why some fetuses lack male hormones at the end of pregnancy. The answer could be that certain stressful situations at this time might trigger a high level of activity in the mother’s adrenal glands. The adrenal glands release male hormones the action of which is different from testosterone, but similar enough to compete with testosterone in the fetal brain to lower the amount of free testosterone. Furthermore, a complementary question is raised: Can prenatal stress play a causal role in human male homosexuality?

    ETA. Most of which Jennifer just said.
    Good book covering most research to date: Brain Gender - Google Books
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  4. #14
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post


    side note: My finger ratio resembles the middle image.
    Mine looks like the pic you posted.

  5. #15

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    I've heard the biochemical developmental argument about sexuality determinism before. My thoughts on this go something like this:-

    - I do wonder following Magic Porefin (spelling) mentioning it on another thread but corresponding to consideration of psychology and development that the discussion had moved toward sociobiological determinism vs. memetics determinism. I think this could be important in the consideration of the determinants of sexuality as much as determinants of other psychology or behaviour. Personally as a cultural theorist I think it has more to do with it than hard sociobiological determinism.

    - I suspect that considering the determinants of sexuality will be more controversial than perhaps considering the determinants of criminality or deviance. Its a highly politicised topic now and totally a subject of kultur kampf. The mixed feelings of fans of homosexuality about origins or determinants of sexuality, ie innateness at one time affirmed at another condemned, can generally not be acknowledged.

    - The argument that sexuality, particularly male or female homosexuality, is determined by the biochemistry of the womb, when I have heard it deployed in Northern Ireland, has generally been done in a manner which on the one hand exhonorates males and fathers of any "blame" for conceiving a homosexual son or daughter, or possible closet orientation. There's an implication there I'm sure that no one friendly to homosexuality or wishing to promote it as a norm would appreciate, it's pretty much still considered abnormal and its something that people accept provided they dont feel responsible for it.

    - This has meant that campaigners who once affirmed biochemical or sociobiological explanations of innateness or "inborn" homosexual orientations in confronting "naturalistic fallacies" are having second thoughts. Innateness or biological explanations failing to result in approval, acceptance and support, arguably the real goal of the homosexual identity groups, they arent as useful.

  6. #16

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    Also, is this for real?

    It didnt occur to me until I'd contributed already but there are lots of folk myths about digital lengths and abnormality or even "evil", vampires and werewolves in some stories where detectable by the measurement of digits.

    Isnt this likely to result in prejudice and bullying? I know in NI there where problems in the schools when the folk myths about the space between eyes could be used to tell which faith community people belonged to became resurgent (I shit you not).

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Also, is this for real?

    It didnt occur to me until I'd contributed already but there are lots of folk myths about digital lengths and abnormality or even "evil", vampires and werewolves in some stories where detectable by the measurement of digits.

    Isnt this likely to result in prejudice and bullying? I know in NI there where problems in the schools when the folk myths about the space between eyes could be used to tell which faith community people belonged to became resurgent (I shit you not).
    Science shouldn't get involved in politics (and vice versa).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #18
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Mine looks like the pic you posted.
    Mine are opposite.

    4D being slightly shorter than 2D.


    Interesting stuff.
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    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Science shouldn't get involved in politics (and vice versa).
    I don't know about that.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Science shouldn't get involved in politics (and vice versa).
    Really? How? What do you mean?

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