What's the deal with Water Divining?

[JivinJeffJones]

Firstly, this is a serious post. I realize that some sentences could be construed as masturbation jokes, but that's just a happy coincidence.

My dad can water-divine, which is the practice of locating underground water using some object (traditionally a fork-shaped branch). He learned it growing up as a farmer. Apparently it's really common among Australian farmers. Australia is obviously a fairly dry country, so farmers here rely heavily on bore water for their livestock. If you're going to dig a deep hole, you obviously want some sort of assurance that there's water at the bottom of it. Water divining is the method whereby they locate underwater "streams" to tap into with their bores.

Here's how it works: you hold your divining aid in front of you, horizontal from the ground usually, though that varies. Also variable is your divining aid. My dad uses a bit of fencing wire. Another friend uses a copper rod. Some use green wood. It changes from person to person. So you walk along with your divining aid (henceforth: rod) in front of you. Once you cross an underground stream, the end of your rod will turn in the direction the stream is flowing. This is not merely a twitch, but often such a strong pull that my dad tells me that it's impossible to hold the rod straight. Judging from the strength of the pull, experienced diviners can ascertain how far down the stream is, how fast the flow is, and even whether the stream is of salt or fresh water (very important in Australia with our salinity problems).

Dad says that some people can do it and some people can't. If you can do it, you can get better at it. If you can't do it, you'll never be able to do it. His brother, for instance, could never do it. The rod wouldn't move at all. As soon as dad put his hand on his brother's body, however, the rod would "work". Moreover, expert users could divine other substances, notably gold and other minerals. Apparently (anecdotally) many of the old Australian prospectors used to use this method to find gold in the days before the invention of metal detectors.

I'm sure I've lost many of you by now. Let me get weirder. The man who taught my dad to divine used to be so good at it that he could follow people. Western Australian police used to get him to help them track lost people.

This probably sounds like the new age ravings of an INFP, but I'm convinced that it's real. I should point out that, unlike many American farmers, Aussie farmers aren't (as a group) at all religious or prone to any kind of mysticism. They generally can't explain how it works, but none of them (that I've met) attribute it to any kind of spiritual activity. The popular theory is some kind of magnetism, but they don't really care how it works as long as it works.

So, my questions are:

1) What the hell is up with this?
2) Is this a practice you are familiar with?
and
3) Is this something that happens in your part of the world?

 

[Athenian200]

What evidence do you have that it isn't staged, that it isn't a parlor trick or simple coincidence? I don't mean to be a critic, but just taking something like that on faith is more than I can handle.

I've heard of it, but I don't really believe in it. Underground water can't make sticks move without touching them. That's just not possible.

I generally avoid people who believe in this. It seems too much like some kind of cult thing, and there's no telling what else they might accept as reasonable if they do this.

No offense, mind you. I'm just pointing out the other point of view.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

What evidence do you have that it isn't staged, that it isn't a parlor trick or simple coincidence? I don't mean to be a critic, but just taking something like that on faith is more than I can handle.

I've heard of it, but I don't really believe in it. Underground water can't make sticks move without touching them. That's just not possible.

I generally avoid people who believe in this. It seems too much like some kind of cult thing, and there's no telling what else they might accept as reasonable if they do this.

No offense, mind you. I'm just pointing out the other point of view.

No, it's a fair question. My source is primarily the first-hand, personal testimony of my dad the INTJ. He is not a fool, and is not at all spiritually inclined. He is not without a sense of humour, but his humour rarely tends in the direction of pulling your leg, and I can spot it a mile away when he does. He is definitely not joking on this subject.

Also, many of the least humorous people I know can either do this or have seen it done. If it didn't work, Australian farmers would not do it. They don't get any government subsidies whatsoever, so they can't afford to indulge in flights-of-fancy. These are not credulous people. I know that the american view of farmers tends in the direction of uneducated, highly-religious yokels, but Australian farmers aren't like that.

After a semi-traumatic childhood of frequently-exploited gullibility, I'm actually pretty good at reading people now. These guys aren't joking about it. Many farmers won't bore until they've gotten someone who can water-divine to scout out prospective locations. My dad recently marked out bore locations for a subdivision of about 40 lots that a friend of his was developing. He had a 100% success rate. On the neighbouring property of subdivisions, the professional borers bored for well over a week without any success at all.

 

[Athenian200]

My dad recently marked out bore locations for a subdivision of about 40 lots that a friend of his was developing. He had a 100% success rate. On the neighbouring property of subdivisions, the professional borers bored for well over a week without any success at all.

Did you actually see this? Hmm, I've investigated, and it's thought that most people who have a good record with this simply rely on extremely subtle, nearly unconscious knowledge of what sort of places are likely to have water underground. What do you say? Seems especially plausible to me, given that after playing through more than one video game by the same designer(s), I get really good at guessing where treasure chests, exits, traps, monsters, and such are. Yet I can't explain how... it's like my unconscious understands a pattern that's too complex for me to convey. That seems common for Ni dominants, actually.

I apologize, but I just can't accept this. For some reason, my mind is hostile to the very idea that something like this could be possible, but I can't explain why. Does that make sense? So it might be best if you find someone who's more open-minded than I am to investigate.

 

[cafe]

I have no idea what's up with it, but I enjoyed reading your accounts of it and find it fascinating. IMO, there are still plenty of things in this world that we don't have a good explanation for, so it doesn't surprise me. Eventually they will probably find an explanation for it, maybe like the one athenian mentioned.

I have heard of it and heard of it being done in the US, but I don't know of anyone who can do it and I've never seen it done.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Did you actually see this? Hmm, I've investigated, and it's thought that most people who have a good record with this simply rely on extremely subtle, nearly unconscious knowledge of what sort of places are likely to have water underground. What do you say? Seems especially plausible to me, given that after playing through more than one video game by the same designer(s), I get really good at guessing where treasure chests, exits, traps, monsters, and such are. Yet I can't explain how... it's like my unconscious understands a pattern that's too complex for me to convey. That seems common for Ni dominants, actually.

Yeah, I can understand how that would seem to be a very tempting explanation. But farmers would not use a stick if they could tell just by looking at the land. They would be proud of the fact that they could do it without a stick.

Also, that would fail to explain the fact that my dad says he can't hold the stick straight when he's passing over a stream. It will twist in his hands.

I apologize, but I just can't accept this. For some reason, my mind is hostile to the very idea that something like this could be possible, but I can't explain why. Does that make sense? So it might be best if you find someone who's more open-minded than I am to investigate.

Yeah, I can see how it would be an uncomfortable idea. I should point out again that my dad is very much an INTJ, and doesn't have a problem with it. He is very pragmatic, so if it works then it works. He doesn't feel inclined to argue with that.

I'm going to try to persuade him to teach me (if I can do it). That way I will be able to speak from first-hand experience rather than 2nd hand.

 

[Athenian200]

Yeah, I can understand how that would seem to be a very tempting explanation. But farmers would not use a stick if they could tell just by looking at the land. They would be proud of the fact that they could do it without a stick.

But what I'm saying is, maybe they don't know consciously that they can, so their conscious mind prevents them from finding it without the stick. People's processing of their senses is normally limited, and perhaps they have access to information they don't normally let themselves process, and projecting onto the stick allows them to perceive an aspect of reality that's normally obscured from consciousness.

Also, that would fail to explain the fact that my dad says he can't hold the stick straight when he's passing over a stream. It will twist in his hands.

Maybe the shaking is his unconscious mind trying to send the message to consciousness in an odd form? I've heard of people with split-brain surgery expressing weird messages to themselves by touching themselves in specific patterns on the back of their hand, but not being aware of it. People can also have involuntary muscle spasms for other reasons...

Yeah, I can see how it would be an uncomfortable idea. I should point out again that my dad is very much an INTJ, and doesn't have a problem with it. He is very pragmatic, so if it works then it works. He doesn't feel inclined to argue with that.

I'm going to try to persuade him to teach me (if I can do it). That way I will be able to speak from first-hand experience rather than 2nd hand.

I still want to see if I can come up with an good, understandable explanation of why it does or doesn't work, and what role the stick plays. You don't mind, right?

 

[Domino]

Oh Jeff. Jeffjeffjeff. Everyone knows there's no water in Australia! Silly man.

Welcome to the 21st century, Jeff. *pats you* Where we all have profound global knowledge. I won't hold your ignorance over you. It was an honest mistake.


PS -- I find it interesting that your father can do that, actually.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

But what I'm saying is, maybe they don't know consciously that they can, so their conscious mind prevents them from finding it without the stick. People's processing of their senses is normally limited, and perhaps they have access to information they don't normally let themselves process, and projecting onto the stick allows them to perceive an aspect of reality that's normally obscured from consciousness.

I find it funny that you find this alternative possibility amenable to a "sceptical" viewpoint. I guess it's a safe possibility, since it's impossible to disprove. However, it's also impossible to prove.

Nonetheless, it doesn't explain why the "trick" doesn't work for my uncle alone, but does work when my dad puts one hand on him. Not sure if I explained it, by this hand was put on my uncle's shoulder, not on the wire my uncle was holding.

Maybe the shaking is his unconscious mind trying to send the message to consciousness in an odd form? I've heard of people with split-brain surgery expressing weird messages to themselves by touching themselves in specific patterns on the back of their hand, but not being aware of it. People can also have involuntary muscle spasms for other reasons...

I still want to see if I can come up with an good, understandable explanation of why it does or doesn't work, and what role the stick plays. You don't mind, right?

Totally understand. Maybe you can explain magnetism to me as well. How metal is "attracted" to an object that isn't touching it in any way, and is even separated from it by a vacuum?

There's a lot of weird stuff out there. That doesn't mean that there isn't a rational explanation. But saying that you won't believe in anything that you can't rationally explain now is to put a lot of faith in your current level of knowledge.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

PS -- I find it interesting that your father can do that, actually.

Soon I will be able to too. Then you will be sooo hot for me. And I will be magnificently indifferent. Who needs women when you can find water with a stick?

 

[Domino]

Soon I will be able to too. Then you will be sooo hot for me. And I will be magnificently indifferent. Who needs women when you can find water with a stick?

Hey! Magnificently indifferent is MY racket, bro! But as I cannot find water with a stick on perhaps the driest continent on earth, I shall refrain from much machismo and saber-rattling displays of verbal retaliation!

 

[sundowning]

1) What the hell is up with this?
2) Is this a practice you are familiar with?
and
3) Is this something that happens in your part of the world?

It's really common in rural/farming areas. My grandpa did it, and so does my dad. He uses a straight steel crowbar, however (5' long) - balances it in the palm of his hand, and it dips when there's a 'stream' underneath.

...and at the risk of sounding like a dick, it's all BS. There is nothing that can describe the effect. And it also shows a general lack of knowledge about the way something called the 'water table' works. Dowse ten 'streams', and drill randomly ten times and you're going to find similar/same results.

Nice folklore, though.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

...and at the risk of sounding like a dick, it's all BS. There is nothing that can describe the effect. And it also shows a general lack of knowledge about the way something called the 'water table' works. Dowse ten 'streams', and drill randomly ten times and you're going to find similar/same results.

Maybe in Canada, but good luck with that in Australia.

 

[sundowning]

Maybe in Canada, but good luck with that in Australia.

True, but on the other hand, I'd love to see someone try dowsing for water in the Canadian shield. With no knowledge of the geological context, I'm sure Jimmy-Bob and his stick could find numerous of 'streams' flowing through solid granite.

Confirmation bias plays into a lot. Dowsing has its roots in a very scientifically illiterate background. If you were to actually test the method via some semblance of scientific rigor - i.e. dowsing the water running from the tap in your house - I'm pretty sure you wouldn't feel anything. And there's always a reason, too - "it's not a large enough body", or "you don't have the dowsing gift", or "it's removed from its natural environment" - but never the right one: "there's no physical attraction force between liquid water and cellulose/steel over tens of feet through soil and brecciated bedrock."

 

[PuddleRiver]

Our well driller did it before he drilled our well. It was very common here, though not done as much anymore since the older people are leaving us.

I never had much luck with it the one time I tried it, but it did seem to work for my husband and my son.

 

[MJ_]

1) What the hell is up with this?

It has no rational explanation that I can think of. I still have trouble believing in it. I have a decent scientific background, and it just doesn't make sense. But, it seems to work for some people.

2) Is this a practice you are familiar with?

I've done it. On a suburban lawn. At the time, I thought it was a joke, or that I would maybe pick up an underground stream (which there is in the area). Or that it would be like a ouiji board, where people just move things around and claim it's some unknown force. I was handed a pair of metal sticks by my SO's grandmother (made by great uncle the dowser), told to hold them straight in front of me, loosely between thumb and forefinger, and I started walking. And then the sticks moved so that they crossed in front of me. I stepped back, the sticks uncrossed. Stepped forward again, the sticks crossed. I tried to hold them parallel, but it didn't work. Grandma, I ask, what am I standing over? Answer- the pipe that leads from the water main to the house . (So, yes, water very removed from its natural environment.)

Which makes me wonder. I wasn't looking at Grandma when I was supposedly dowsing- so no visual clues. I didn't know where the pipe was- no prior knowledge. Grandma knew because they'd needed the pipe fixed ten years ago. And she isn't my grandmother, and the house isn't a place I've spent a lot of time in. No clues from the lay of the land- it's a flat piece of lawn. Unless you consider that the pipes commonly lead from the water main under the street to the front of the house, which leaves a 25 foot stretch in front of the house where I could have supposed it to be, and a less than 1 foot area where the sticks crossed. Maybe a 10-15 foot stretch if you consider that the pipe would possibly connect to the house closer to the side with the kitchen and laundry room, where the water usage is greater. But I can't speak for my subconscious and what it was doing that day.


3) Is this something that happens in your part of the world?

Less commonly. These days you hire a 'drilling company' when you want a well dug for a cottage or home, not a 'well drilling company'. They don't guarantee you will have water. They just dig where you tell them to, or where the contractor recommends, or you hire a dowser to tell you where to put the well.

 

[Oberon]

What evidence do you have that it isn't staged, that it isn't a parlor trick or simple coincidence? I don't mean to be a critic, but just taking something like that on faith is more than I can handle.

When I was a teenager I tried this, using a green Y-shaped stick cut from a shrub or small tree. It's real, and it works. I used it to locate drilling spots for a couple of wells my father put in on rental properties.

I went at it without indulging in any cultish mumbo-jumbo. I held the stick by the arms of the Y with the stem pointed upward, and walked a criss-cross pattern in the field. The guys who do it say it helps if you think about water while you're doing it, so I thought about water. I'd just read it out of a book.

At one point during my little walk--sproing!--the stick flipped around and pointed downward.

"Huh," I thought, backed up a few steps, and tried it again. The stick sproinged again at the same spot. So I took a few steps forward, turned around, and came back toward the place from another direction. The stick sproinged again, at the same spot.

There were a couple of other places on the property that generated a reaction, but none as strong as this first one, so I stuck a flag in the ground and that's where the driller drilled his well. It turned out to be a good well, but water's not scarce in that area so that really proves nothing.

I can tell you for certain, however, that some phenomenon causes the stick to move. I am certain that it is a natural phenomenon--magnetic field fluctuations?--for which the human body acts as a sort of antenna. The notion that there's anything spiritual about it is, I believe, simply poppycock.

 

[Zergling]

I can tell you for certain, however, that some phenomenon causes the stick to move. I am certain that it is a natural phenomenon--magnetic field fluctuations?--for which the human body acts as a sort of antenna. The notion that there's anything spiritual about it is, I believe, simply poppycock.

It would have to be something odder than that, otherwise you could just use a compass to find the water, or use a good bar magnet moving around to cause sticks to move. (It might be useful to bring something for those types of measurements to work out why this would be happening, assuming the story is real.)

 

[563 740]

Our well driller did it before he drilled our well. It was very common here, though not done as much anymore since the older people are leaving us.

I never had much luck with it the one time I tried it, but it did seem to work for my husband and my son.

I'm tempted to say my parent's well was located by divining (also called "dowsing", I think).

Pretty' f'n wild, IMO. Hopefully Mythbusters will do an episode on it some day.

 

[ptgatsby]

This was one of my first introductions to the scientific method and all of the biases it needs to fight through. And it was in Australia that I read about the new challenges that were being brought to challenge myths, which I believe this falls into.

A quick google turned up what I remember reading about - Australian Skeptics Divining Test