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  1. #111
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentMind View Post
    We don't have fins.
    This is because having fins is disadvantageous.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #112
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    This is because having fins is disadvantageous.
    How so?
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



  3. #113
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I do not think it would be right to say that just because stuff is "no longer needed" it goes away. If that were true the selection would be stable. Larger bodies would have to be disadvantageous.
    It doesn't necessarily have to be disadvantageous to become actively deselected, a defined trait decreasal only works in case circumstance where this trait is a liability or interference for the species survival, otherwise something like larger bodies does not disappear entirely, even in favor for positive selection of smaller, less energy requiring bodies. Also you have to put in mind external factors, like diet and climate, location, altitude.

    But yes having a larger body muscular body today is more or less redundant in comparison to say 40000 years ago.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  4. #114
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    The Flynn effect is bogus and based on what i would call highly subjective factors in a even more obscure conclusion based on a unsubstantiated assumption. The same two emeritus researchers support the conclusion made by Phillipe J .Rushton who states that there is some kind of racial hierarchy of intelligence determined by genetically belonging to the respective group of Europeans, East-Asians and Sub-Saharan Africans. So citing the Flynn effect as a relevant factor is highly questionable considering the implications and agenda held by the author of the "Flynn-effect"(The guy actually believes that certain part's of the world have the same mental performance as people classified as mentally handicapped). The sources for the theory is highly questionable so to speak.
    I'm aware of the controversy. It's not a theory - it's a statistical observation. You can provide data to the contrary or you can expose any problems with the methodology. Ad hominem attacks are not persuasive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #115
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I'm aware of the controversy. It's not a theory - it's a statistical observation. You can provide data to the contrary or you can expose any problems with the methodology.
    It's not only partially based on statistical data obtained by IQ tests, with some of the input of it being questionable like Equatorial guinea. But there are also very arbitrary factors, like economical statuses of countries included which influences the "Flynn factors" effect on diverse population's.

    The bell-curve authors only demonstrate that economically lesser nations perform worse then 1st world countries on standardized Intelligence quotient tests. It doesn't really prove anything about the cognitive ability of denizens of the world.

    Lots of criticism by qualified scholars has already been directed towards the book, so i don't see the point in trying to take up it's deficiencies. But the least i can do is tell you that the hypothesizes and explanations are jack shit for credibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Ad hominem attacks are not persuasive.
    Correction>
    Ad-hominem constitutes a personal attack towards the opposing party in the form of linking the premise of your argument to an agenda or a belief, to undermine the validity of your argument. I was questioning the usage of the flynn effect as a premise, i was not making a statement about your apparent . Had i said something like" Hey, your argument is invalid because the flynn effect is racist, so your a racist, thus your premise is invalid", that would constitute an Ad-Hominem.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  6. #116
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    I see a few fallacies in this thread.

    The obvious one is definitions of intelligence. There is not an agreed upon definition in even the slightest sense. For example, by many definitions, artificial intelligence has not been made (as algorithms are not considered intelligent). By other definitions, a primitive calculator is already far beyond human intelligence.

    Another is the idea of "out-evolving", or being "more evolved". There is no such thing. Something is either adapted to the environment or not. To simplify, either surviving or not. Humans are just as "evolved" as any other life form that survives today (except those becoming extinct), unless one takes a non-standard definition of "evolution" (which only hinders things). Evolution != improvement, evolution is objective, improvement is subjective.

    Changes in species are not necessarily due to evolution either. As changes aren't necessarily an adaption in response to the environment. This is why traits that are either neutral or negative to survival rates often arise and persist in species.

    Finally, it is simple fact that the typical modern human faces far more mental stimulation than the typical human at any other time. The amount may have fluctuated in the past few decades, but prior to that there was consistently less information and ways to process it (both mentally and physically). However, what has happened recently is not very relevant on a five thousand year scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Seriously, there's no mystery. Big bodies require big brains. Most of the work your brain does has nothing to do with higher cognition. It's just running your body. Our bodies have shrunk; so have our brains.
    Simples.
    Our bodies have shrunk? All I've ever heard is the opposite. A recent boom, but a gradual increase prior to that.

  7. #117
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Our bodies have shrunk? All I've ever heard is the opposite. A recent boom, but a gradual increase prior to that.
    Well as i mentioned earlier... there are a shitload of factors that determines a populations average stature.

    But according to findings of cromagnon, they hypothesize that it is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia View Post
    cro-Magnon were anatomically modern, straight limbed and tall compared to the contemporary Neanderthals. Physically they only differ from their modern day descendants in Europe by being on average taller, having a more robust physique and a slightly larger cranial capacity.[20] The Cro-Magnons had long, fairly low skulls, with a wide face, a prominent nose and moderate to no prognathism, similar to features seen in modern Europeans.[21] A very distinct trait is the rectangular orbits.[22] Several works on genetics, blood types and cranial morphology indicate that the Basque people may be the descendents of the original Cro-Magnon population.[23].
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelGadaafi View Post
    Well as i mentioned earlier... there are a shitload of factors that determines a populations average stature.
    Yes, but long after Cro-Magnons is what I was referring to.

    It may be closely linked to the development of agriculture or other factors outside of genetics, but I thought evidence suggested that over the past five thousand years human bodies have been increasing in size.

    An idea I'm particularly fond of for no rational reason, is that brain size evolution lags behind body size evolution. So the average brain shrinking in the last few thousand years would be a delayed response to humans still being smaller than cro-Magnons twenty thousand years ago, yet possessing comparable brain size and function.

  9. #119
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    An idea I'm particularly fond of for no rational reason, is that brain size evolution lags behind body size evolution. So the average brain shrinking in the last few thousand years would be a delayed response to humans still being smaller than cro-Magnons twenty thousand years ago, yet possessing comparable brain size and function.
    Actually you are right... i took the time to look up the quoted source and as it turns out

    Quote Originally Posted by Encyclopedia Britannica View Post
    Cro-Magnons were robustly built and powerful and are presumed to have been about 166 to 171 cm (about 5 feet 5 inches to 5 feet 7 inches) tall. The body was generally heavy and solid, apparently with strong musculature. The forehead was straight, with slight browridges, and the face short and wide. Cro-Magnons were the first humans (genus Homo) to have a prominent chin. The brain capacity was about 1,600 cc (100 cubic inches), somewhat larger than the average for modern humans. It is thought that Cro-Magnons were probably fairly tall compared with other early human species.
    The average for most human population is higher... somewhere around estimated 175cm if all the populations had equal terms in nutrition and diseases. With some human populations reaching up to 184-190cm's (6 feet plus) like the Sudanese Dinka, Monte-Negrans, The Dutch and so on and forth. But it still doesn't suffice to say that because of the cro-magnon's larger cranial capacities.. they must have been more intelligent, you can make the same statement about . After all these were archaic Homo Sapiens and they did not have the same mutations(many which we could reasonably say are positive in comparison).

    This also poses a new question. Are we out of our element with sedentary lifestyles and technology?.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  10. #120
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    How are they measuring this, anyway? If we're measuring brain capacity by skull capacity, it's possible that our skulls are just getting smaller and tighter around our brains -- A koala's brain only takes up half of its skull capacity, the rest filled with cerebrospinal fluid.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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