• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Einstein-Rosenburg Bridges

TopherRed

New member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
1,272
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
2w3
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Let's talk about folding space (notice I didn't say let's talk about black holes, as I didn't want this astrophysics inquiry to be confused with a biological one).

What are the latest theories out there?
Are we any closer to finding the theoretical "graviton" particles and how would that change our views on physics and ultimately our ability (or lack thereof) to get to the next star system over within a reasonable time period?
So far, have we discovered any planets in the Alpha/Beta/Proxima Centauri system?
What are the most likely candidates to harbor an Earth-like planet that are nearby?

Talk to me. I want to see the Kentaurus in all their beauty before I die within a reasonable distance (say...1 AU of Alpha)
 

Asterion

Ruler of the Stars
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
2,331
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Last time I checked, they were saying that they discovered that the universe may be doughnut shaped, spiraling towards the center of the ring at every point, and either expanding, contracting or neither, depending on that C factor that Einstein forgot to mention. Folding space is just a theory, it takes infinite energy to do it, so it's pretty well guaranteed that we wont ever build a machine to do it (like in just about all of sci-fi)
 

TopherRed

New member
Joined
Jul 28, 2009
Messages
1,272
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
2w3
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Well that's depressing. Any other FTL ideas?
 

Asterion

Ruler of the Stars
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
2,331
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Well that's depressing. Any other FTL ideas?

lol, how is that depressing? Black holes practically have infinite energy, there's still always a chance that we could use them in the future... although, that much energy is far beyond deadly and we'd probably have enough trouble just sending a probe to the nearest black hole.
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
8,491
lol, how is that depressing? Black holes practically have infinite energy, there's still always a chance that we could use them in the future... although, that much energy is far beyond deadly and we'd probably have enough trouble just sending a probe to the nearest black hole.

We could send them, but we'd never be able to get any information back from them. They're self contained systems.
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Would they get there within our lifespans though?

"Lifespan" is a fairly fluid term. More likely than not, by the time we are able to have successful technological communication with Black Holes, we'll have long solved the problem of biological decay.

Actually, the ideas are kinda interrelated. Dyson Swarms might be the earliest, easiest means of safely interacting with a Black Hole/Event Horizon while reducing resource sacrifice (beyond financial loss). A Dyson Swarm bot is simply a complex Nanobot (the same technology we will likely soon be using to slow/eliminate aging and death) operating within a collective, whose sole purpose is to gather meaningful information and then transmit the data back to its host source (us).

Once we have a reliable model of communication, we can then explore how humans might best interact with intense gravitometric phenomenon.

Gravitons come next.
 

Asterion

Ruler of the Stars
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
2,331
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
The nearest black hole is "1,600 light years from Earth". If we tried hard enough, we might get to it in about 50 million years (super rough calculation), assuming we're around that long. We could make a faster rocket of course, but it's still rather impractical, but possible, and I suppose thats what really matters. I wonder what kind of information we could get from going one on one with a black hole...
 

runvardh

にゃん
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
8,541
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Sorry to break it to you guys, but they're doing gravity research right now. the LHC in Switzerland is one of the labs that have been created to isolate it or its effects.
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
8,491
Sorry to break it to you guys, but they're doing graviton research right now. the LHC in Switzerland is one of the labs that have been created to isolate them or their effects.

I was under the impression the LHC can't collide things at the energy required to see gravitons. I don't think they'll find them anyways though, but I have nothing to base that off of.

Higgs boson is far more likely. That'd be impressive.
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Sorry to break it to you guys, but they're doing graviton research right now. the LHC in Switzerland is one of the labs that have been created to isolate them or their effects.

We're still pretty early on in our research of gravitons. We haven't even physically identified them beyond hypothesis.
 

runvardh

にゃん
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
8,541
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I was under the impression the LHC can't collide things at the energy required to see gravitons. I don't think they'll find them anyways though, but I have nothing to base that off of.

Higgs boson is far more likely. That'd be impressive.

Those are the energy levels they're hoping to collide things at. Gravity and the dimentionality of spacetime are two of the things they have on the top of their list.

We're still pretty early on in our research of gravitons. We haven't even physically identified them beyond hypothesis.

But Super Symetry gives a few energy levels that could bring out the sister particle of the graviton. The LHC is supposed to hit in that range, IIRC - I'll need to do some looking again.
 

forzen

New member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
547
MBTI Type
INTJ
Perhaps when we can explain dark energy and dark matter, we'll be able to have a better understanding on how to manipulate spacetime. Right now, were like fish trying to figure out what water is. However, most FTL travel is either folding space or warping it, which like what was said above, requires massive amount of energy. It's unlikely that we'll be able to go to another star system till we at least discover a near infinite source of energy or energy that is self substainable(fusion comes to mind). Black hole is a good source of spacetime bending to the extreme, but we still need a theory that works at quantum and massive level to explain its exotic behavior (since general and quantum hates each other and scientist is just getting into string theory).

The singularity has a higher chance of happening then us discovering FTL this century.
 
O

Oberon

Guest
...Black holes practically have infinite energy...

Hmmm. Did you mean "infinite energy," or "practically infinite energy"?

One is a mathematical expression, the other (at best) an engineer's solution. "Practically infinite" is like "almost pregnant." It either is or it isn't; there's no such thing as close.

This has been your Pedantic ENTP Moment(TM) for today.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Perhaps when we can explain dark energy and dark matter, we'll be able to have a better understanding on how to manipulate spacetime. Right now, were like fish trying to figure out what water is. However, most FTL travel is either folding space or warping it, which like what was said above, requires massive amount of energy. It's unlikely that we'll be able to go to another star system till we at least discover a near infinite source of energy or energy that is self substainable(fusion comes to mind). Black hole is a good source of spacetime bending to the extreme, but we still need a theory that works at quantum and massive level to explain its exotic behavior (since general and quantum hates each other and scientist is just getting into string theory).

The singularity has a higher chance of happening then us discovering FTL this century.
The latest idea I keep hearing of for FTL is shrinking space; this being tied to the notion that space is expanding (the fabric of space itself; not just the relative distance between objects), and might also involve exotic matter or something.
Of course, that would still pose the same problem of requiring massive amounts of energy that we do not have access to.

An actual black hole would not be good; even if you could avoid the singularity, because of the tidal forces and accumulation of orbiting blue-shifted energy around it.
 

forzen

New member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
547
MBTI Type
INTJ
The latest idea I keep hearing of for FTL is shrinking space; this being tied to the notion that space is expanding (the fabric of space itself; not just the relative distance between objects), and might also involve exotic matter or something.
Of course, that would still pose the same problem of requiring massive amounts of energy that we do not have access to.

An actual black hole would not be good; even if you could avoid the singularity, because of the tidal forces and accumulation of orbiting blue-shifted energy around it.

Shrinking spacetime in front while expanding it behind the vessel. But before we get to such phase we still need to have a theory that works on all levels. The idea of bending spacetime can generally be accomplish by a massive distortion such as one cause by a black hole. But when dealing with black holes, we have a massive object compressed into a tiny space. Our ability to predict objects that's massive and at the same time very tiny is less than perfect. General relativity predicts behavior at planetary level, but fails when used for anomalies at quantum level. While quantum theory state that objects should be warping in random places, since that's prone to happened at the quantum level (particles becomes agitated the more precise you try to pinpoint there location), which isn't the case since nothing just dissapears without a cause.

We still don't know what's holding galaxies together. General census states that the outer wings of the milky way galaxy should be seperating (which is bad, since earth is in one of the wing), since theres not enough mass to explain why the wing is still in orbit. So we probably need to find what dark matter or dark energy are (which scientist predict is the cause of galaxies sticking together). Its like if a fish wants to fly (imagine they have capabilities to create technology), they will need to figure out the nature of air and how to manipulate it to give them lift (some fish can fly lol, which is kind of like us, since we can also fly in space, but like them, we have limits).

As for our energy problem, human are very good at mimicking nature (flying, temperature control, etc), so in my opinion its only a matter of time till we create something similar to our sun (useable fusion energy).

PS, singularity that i was referring to was a theory that a futurist wrote stating that human would merge with machine in the near future (possibly at the year 205X according to his estimate).
 
Last edited:

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,668
MBTI Type
YMCA
Those are the energy levels they're hoping to collide things at. Gravity and the dimentionality of spacetime are two of the things they have on the top of their list.



But Super Symetry gives a few energy levels that could bring out the sister particle of the graviton. The LHC is supposed to hit in that range, IIRC - I'll need to do some looking again.

They won't necessarily find gravitons or the Higgs at LHC. I'm not sure they expect to either. It may just help confirm that they aren't there, so scientists can move on to other theories. I admit it will be cool if they find them though.
 

runvardh

にゃん
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
8,541
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
This is what they're after - straight from the CERN website.
 

Asterion

Ruler of the Stars
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
2,331
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Hmmm. Did you mean "infinite energy," or "practically infinite energy"?

One is a mathematical expression, the other (at best) an engineer's solution. "Practically infinite" is like "almost pregnant." It either is or it isn't; there's no such thing as close.

This has been your Pedantic ENTP Moment(TM) for today.

Yeah, I do mean Infinite energy, I put practically there because I'm not entirely positive that infinity is actually required. Black holes don't exactly have infinite energy, but they are pretty close. If they can fold space, then maybe you don't need to have exactly infinity to do it, but I suspect that black holes don't quite cut it.

Responding appropriately to your PENTUM (tm) from yesterday-ish.
 
Top