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  1. #11
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Sorry to break it to you guys, but they're doing graviton research right now. the LHC in Switzerland is one of the labs that have been created to isolate them or their effects.
    We're still pretty early on in our research of gravitons. We haven't even physically identified them beyond hypothesis.

  2. #12
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I was under the impression the LHC can't collide things at the energy required to see gravitons. I don't think they'll find them anyways though, but I have nothing to base that off of.

    Higgs boson is far more likely. That'd be impressive.
    Those are the energy levels they're hoping to collide things at. Gravity and the dimentionality of spacetime are two of the things they have on the top of their list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    We're still pretty early on in our research of gravitons. We haven't even physically identified them beyond hypothesis.
    But Super Symetry gives a few energy levels that could bring out the sister particle of the graviton. The LHC is supposed to hit in that range, IIRC - I'll need to do some looking again.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    Perhaps when we can explain dark energy and dark matter, we'll be able to have a better understanding on how to manipulate spacetime. Right now, were like fish trying to figure out what water is. However, most FTL travel is either folding space or warping it, which like what was said above, requires massive amount of energy. It's unlikely that we'll be able to go to another star system till we at least discover a near infinite source of energy or energy that is self substainable(fusion comes to mind). Black hole is a good source of spacetime bending to the extreme, but we still need a theory that works at quantum and massive level to explain its exotic behavior (since general and quantum hates each other and scientist is just getting into string theory).

    The singularity has a higher chance of happening then us discovering FTL this century.

  4. #14
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by King-Of-Despair View Post
    ...Black holes practically have infinite energy...
    Hmmm. Did you mean "infinite energy," or "practically infinite energy"?

    One is a mathematical expression, the other (at best) an engineer's solution. "Practically infinite" is like "almost pregnant." It either is or it isn't; there's no such thing as close.

    This has been your Pedantic ENTP Moment(TM) for today.

  5. #15
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forzen View Post
    Perhaps when we can explain dark energy and dark matter, we'll be able to have a better understanding on how to manipulate spacetime. Right now, were like fish trying to figure out what water is. However, most FTL travel is either folding space or warping it, which like what was said above, requires massive amount of energy. It's unlikely that we'll be able to go to another star system till we at least discover a near infinite source of energy or energy that is self substainable(fusion comes to mind). Black hole is a good source of spacetime bending to the extreme, but we still need a theory that works at quantum and massive level to explain its exotic behavior (since general and quantum hates each other and scientist is just getting into string theory).

    The singularity has a higher chance of happening then us discovering FTL this century.
    The latest idea I keep hearing of for FTL is shrinking space; this being tied to the notion that space is expanding (the fabric of space itself; not just the relative distance between objects), and might also involve exotic matter or something.
    Of course, that would still pose the same problem of requiring massive amounts of energy that we do not have access to.

    An actual black hole would not be good; even if you could avoid the singularity, because of the tidal forces and accumulation of orbiting blue-shifted energy around it.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The latest idea I keep hearing of for FTL is shrinking space; this being tied to the notion that space is expanding (the fabric of space itself; not just the relative distance between objects), and might also involve exotic matter or something.
    Of course, that would still pose the same problem of requiring massive amounts of energy that we do not have access to.

    An actual black hole would not be good; even if you could avoid the singularity, because of the tidal forces and accumulation of orbiting blue-shifted energy around it.
    Shrinking spacetime in front while expanding it behind the vessel. But before we get to such phase we still need to have a theory that works on all levels. The idea of bending spacetime can generally be accomplish by a massive distortion such as one cause by a black hole. But when dealing with black holes, we have a massive object compressed into a tiny space. Our ability to predict objects that's massive and at the same time very tiny is less than perfect. General relativity predicts behavior at planetary level, but fails when used for anomalies at quantum level. While quantum theory state that objects should be warping in random places, since that's prone to happened at the quantum level (particles becomes agitated the more precise you try to pinpoint there location), which isn't the case since nothing just dissapears without a cause.

    We still don't know what's holding galaxies together. General census states that the outer wings of the milky way galaxy should be seperating (which is bad, since earth is in one of the wing), since theres not enough mass to explain why the wing is still in orbit. So we probably need to find what dark matter or dark energy are (which scientist predict is the cause of galaxies sticking together). Its like if a fish wants to fly (imagine they have capabilities to create technology), they will need to figure out the nature of air and how to manipulate it to give them lift (some fish can fly lol, which is kind of like us, since we can also fly in space, but like them, we have limits).

    As for our energy problem, human are very good at mimicking nature (flying, temperature control, etc), so in my opinion its only a matter of time till we create something similar to our sun (useable fusion energy).

    PS, singularity that i was referring to was a theory that a futurist wrote stating that human would merge with machine in the near future (possibly at the year 205X according to his estimate).
    Last edited by forzen; 08-19-2009 at 09:41 PM. Reason: for clarity and spelling error.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Those are the energy levels they're hoping to collide things at. Gravity and the dimentionality of spacetime are two of the things they have on the top of their list.



    But Super Symetry gives a few energy levels that could bring out the sister particle of the graviton. The LHC is supposed to hit in that range, IIRC - I'll need to do some looking again.
    They won't necessarily find gravitons or the Higgs at LHC. I'm not sure they expect to either. It may just help confirm that they aren't there, so scientists can move on to other theories. I admit it will be cool if they find them though.
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  8. #18
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    This is what they're after - straight from the CERN website.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  9. #19
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Hmmm. Did you mean "infinite energy," or "practically infinite energy"?

    One is a mathematical expression, the other (at best) an engineer's solution. "Practically infinite" is like "almost pregnant." It either is or it isn't; there's no such thing as close.

    This has been your Pedantic ENTP Moment(TM) for today.
    Yeah, I do mean Infinite energy, I put practically there because I'm not entirely positive that infinity is actually required. Black holes don't exactly have infinite energy, but they are pretty close. If they can fold space, then maybe you don't need to have exactly infinity to do it, but I suspect that black holes don't quite cut it.

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