User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 13

  1. #1
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default Do Laws of Physics Lead to Determinism?

    I was just trying to get some sleep and started thinking about Big Bang. If all the stuff and energy started from there and follow strict laws, then everything is determined. This current situation is determined by the Big Bang, right? Every cell in my body is result of a chain reaction that has been going on since the beginning of ... everything. Everything that has happened to me has been result of the same chain reaction.

    Goddamn. If there is such thing as causality, it means I have no choice over anything. I can't believe I never thought about this. Please, explain me out of this... I don't like it.

  2. #2
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    Nope. Quantum Mechanics creates an inherent uncertainty in the universe. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle states that you can never know exactly the position and the momentum, and therefore speed, of an object at the same time. In quantum physics, particles appear and disappear, pass through solid objects, annihilate and "create" themselves at every moment. Quantum mechanics has ended causality in the sense you think of it.



  3. #3
    Senor Membrane
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,190

    Default

    Oh... I see. That's odd. I haven't slept, so it's no use for me to check that theory now, but if I understood right, that means that in the end there aren't any definite laws? I don't see how anyone could prove that there isn't a law behind that apparent randomness...

    Very interesting, anyhow. I'll check it out when I had my sleep. Thanks.

  4. #4
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    There are probably laws behind the apparent randomness but according to quantum mechanics they dont follow causality anymore.

    That means that you could witness an effect happening without a visible cause. This eludes the human brain completly, because you either need a reason for something to happen or it happened randomly. The thing is the linearity of time changes in the quantum world and therefore causality is eliminated.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #5
    Senior Member TheLastMohican's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    328

    Default

    JocktheMotie has a good point about quantum mechanics, but all that means is that we couldn't predict the exact course of the universe from the beginning. Nolla, you are right that you don't really have a choice about anything. (That blurs the definition of "you," doesn't it?) There are uncertainties due to quantum mechanics, but you don't have any more control over how those turn out than you do over classical mechanics, so you and your actions are still just the results of a slightly randomized chain reaction.

  6. #6
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,690

    Default

    I agree with things said so far.

    However you turn this it seems that you/we don't control much.

  7. #7
    morose bourgeoisie
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    3,860

    Default

    So what you really want to know is whether or not you have free will? Yes?

    I don't think the laws of physics are related to your fate. of course, if you throw yourself off a building in existential dispair, you will be beholden to gravity before the end...

  8. #8
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    3,466

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    However you turn this it seems that you/we don't control much.
    I don't know. There are some things that almost lend it to phenomenalism as much as determinism.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  9. #9
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INTx
    Posts
    829

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Quantum Mechanics creates an inherent uncertainty in the universe. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle states that you can never know exactly the position and the momentum, and therefore speed, of an object at the same time. In quantum physics, particles appear and disappear, pass through solid objects, annihilate and "create" themselves at every moment. Quantum mechanics has ended causality in the sense you think of it.
    I'd debate this. It seems entirely too easy to concede that something is random and unknowable just because we don't know how it works. Sufficiently advanced science would appear as magic, and such.

  10. #10
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    I'd debate this. It seems entirely too easy to concede that something is random and unknowable just because we don't know how it works. Sufficiently advanced science would appear as magic, and such.
    I would agree with this statement, however it has been found that this is how it works. We are not saying things are random because we can't see how it happens, we say things are random because that is what happens. The same math and experiments that give tremendously accurate predictions, also tell you there is no way to predict outcomes, only chances of outcomes. And you can see this. Research the double slit experiment. If you can understand the implications of that experiment, it is amazing.

    That being said, if a new model comes out that can explain quantum mechanics perfectly, and explain other things we have questions about that makes even more accurate predictions and results, and it implies a causal universe, great. It would be a great achievement. I think people don't inherently like randomness and QM's theory/model, because it means you can never actually know everything about a system, and that goes against many scientist's idea of the deterministic universe that Newton started, and Einstein unwittingly ended.



Similar Threads

  1. EmDrive Is an Engine That Breaks the Laws of Physics and Could Take Us to Mars
    By Tellenbach in forum Science, Technology, and Future Tech
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-10-2014, 08:15 AM
  2. Box of condoms leads to evacuation
    By rivercrow in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-19-2011, 04:55 AM
  3. Replies: 47
    Last Post: 02-23-2009, 10:07 PM
  4. [INTJ] Why do a lot of people seem to have lots of negative views about INTJs?
    By bai_lin83 in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 01-21-2008, 12:30 AM
  5. Do we have a "right" to the organs of the dead?
    By heart in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 07-23-2007, 05:15 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO