User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 20

  1. #1

    Default The Arrow of Time

    I want to start a discussion about the science that gives direction to the way time "flows."

    It is fascinating to me. Why does the 2nd Law of thermodynamics hold? Why does quantum entanglement increase over time? Why does electromagnetic radiation follow only retarded solutions instead of advanced solutions?

    To put it in simpler terms:
    Why is the Past different from the future?

    Some examples:
    • Objects spontaneously fall towards the earth, but not the other way around.
    • A vase can spontaneous break or shatter, but the reverse doesn't happen spontaneously.
    • Waves radiate outwards from a point spontaneously, but don't converge to a pont spontaneously.


    Some indication is that the Second Law of Thermodynamics comes from going from states that are less probable to states that are more probable.

    In fact, the entropy associated with a certain macro-state is porportional to the ln of the number of micro-states associated with that macro-state.

    Still that doesn't completely explain things like the radiation, or even the gravity direction (though the gravity related issues are expalined by Gibbs-Free Energy, but what explaines Gibbs-Free-Energy).

    So lets speculate. I think it'll be interesting.

    Einstein and Ritz had an argument over with was more primary--Einstein believed Thermodynamics explained the directionality of radiation, while Ritz believed that the direction of radiation was primary and lead to thermodynamics.

    Note some other issues, like the topology of the universe will prohibit time-like curves that meet themselves without violating the laws of thermodynamics. Hawking had a theory that entropy (and perhaps our associated notion of time) would start going backwards at some point in history to allow such topologies.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #2
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    Hype
    Posts
    2,078

    Default

    I recently found philosophical inspiration to bolster an idea i've toyed with recently: time is meaningless and nothing itself. I found it in a strange author that most physicists would be unfamiliar to: Kant.
    "All phenomena, that is, all objects of the senses, are in time, and stand necessarily in relations of time" ... "If we drop our manner of looking at ourselves internally, and of comprehending by means of intuition... then time is nothing". Time is intuitive and perceived only because the human mind seeks to project, predict, and "roll" as best it can.

    This proposition also explains why we cannot define infinite very well (conceptually nor mathematically) - because infinite by itself cannot be conceptualized outside the realm of Time and Change. It requires an understanding of the "rate of change" of infinite when we have an infinite series, for example, as we can't examine infinite divided by infinite anymore than we could examine Jrogrols divided by Jrogrols (random word I made up to demonstrate epistemological unawareness)

    What need be crucially understood here is that time is meaningless without change - it is interesting to point out how simply this is demonstrated in popular film. What happens when we "freeze time" in Star Trek or twilight zone? Changes stop occuring, that's it. Freezing time can't be understood any further beyond that because time IS change. In the sci-fi world, freezing time is essentially the same as being able to change while nothing else changes around you (which I think is impossible but it nonetheless demonstrates how common this idea is)

    Now, since I have conveniently redefined the nature of the question by eliminating the appeal to "time itself" (time doesn't FLOW - in fact it doesn't DO anything at all) to explain the sequential nature of events, it must be restated:

    Why is thermodynamics a one way arrow? Why does change always occur according to the rules of entropy? What don't we see really ODDBALL shit, like a basketball falling upwards?

    I must admit that question bugs the hell out of me, because there's no obvious reason it SHOULD be just like that. Physicists and metaphysics just have to swallow the bitter "that's the way it is" pill at this juncture. To be bold, I don't think it DOES absent of some "divine engineer"(and this hypothesis is dubitable no doubt), it just appears to us that way. I think there is infinite chaos and infinite possibility to the universe... just for whatever reason, entropy applies to us 100% of the time. or at least it SEEMS to... I can conceptualize a universe where our "quantum mechanical garbage" (IE the results we DON'T see), get dumped into some sub-realm, something ala Everet's model...

    If a portion of the basketball falls upwards.... there's gotta be a reason we can't observe that portion.

  3. #3
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    Hype
    Posts
    2,078

    Default

    Maybe God likes to play "segregation" with energy and results, 1950s American style? It's absurd to group the chaotic universe with the nicely ordered, converging universe! Maybe hell is just a bunch of refuse.



    EDIT: actually analyzing through Energy and a particular statistical result doesn't do "justice" to time..... time must be summarized in ALL of the changes in effects we see in a system. Thermodynamics does this very well, much better than time.

  4. #4
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,755

    Default

    woah i was just thinking about this.

    I suspect time is just a projection of information from our brains. but I am not sure.
    Time is one of the undefinable things and mystery in nature.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  5. #5
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    NICE
    Posts
    1,721

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Why is thermodynamics a one way arrow? Why does change always occur according to the rules of entropy?
    I rather like Bolzmann's theory. It has interesting implications.



    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    If a portion of the basketball falls upwards.... there's gotta be a reason we can't observe that portion.
    How do you know it hasn't? When you weren't looking.

  6. #6

    Default

    Ah. Good. People are participating. Time ans space are artificial concpets we made to explain the universe, but the notions to correspond to something.

    It's tricky though, because I know of no way to objectively place the "present moment."

    It seems like the present moment is absolutely subjective. Though the directionality from past to future seem to have some arrows.

    Boltzman's theory is the micro-state macro-state theory I slated earlier. if w is the number microstates for a particular Energy state, then the entropy S is proportional to ln(w). So "disorder" is really kind-of analogous to loss of information--anctually in information theory, "bits of information" are actually called negentropy.

    Interesting, huh?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #7
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,755

    Default

    So is there a way for time to flow backward? Time and energy I think are pretty intertwined.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  8. #8
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    yea it works like my brain, it constantly dissolves .

    I am not a big fan of giving the entropy too much credit concerning our definition of time. Time is an illusion and therefore our understanding of it is just an interpretation of the real mechanics.

    But what is indeed really intresting would be the reactions that take place to dissolve a theorethical perfect system. That goes down the bigbang route, like what initiated the bigbang ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #9
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    yea it works like my brain, it constantly dissolves .

    I am not a big fan of giving the entropy too much credit concerning our definition of time. Time is an illusion and therefore our understanding of it is just an interpretation of the real mechanics.

    But what is indeed really intresting would be the reactions that take place to dissolve a theorethical perfect system. That goes down the bigbang route, like what initiated the bigbang ?
    I disagree with you here. I think entropy has to do with everything concerning time. Entropy gives matter and energy rules for how it should behave. Time is simply the rate at which those processes behave, and it is not an illusion, because we can change the rate at which it moves across different reference frames by manipulate the energy of the system. While our idea of seconds, minutes, hours and years are certainly arbitrary and based on how our minds experience time, that doesn't mean time itself is created by our minds.



  10. #10
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,755

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I disagree with you here. I think entropy has to do with everything concerning time. Entropy gives matter and energy rules for how it should behave. Time is simply the rate at which those processes behave, and it is not an illusion, because we can change the rate at which it moves across different reference frames by manipulate the energy of the system. While our idea of seconds, minutes, hours and years are certainly arbitrary and based on how our minds experience time, that doesn't mean time itself is created by our minds.
    time is not an independent cvariable of energy. As for time being a vector quantity and energyt being scalar. I do not know how this works.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

Similar Threads

  1. NJs: How do you relate to Ni as the Intuition of time (Socionics concept)?
    By Stansmith in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 05-04-2014, 05:52 PM
  2. Temple at the Center of Time - Isaac Newton's Temple of Solomon
    By RaptorWizard in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-12-2012, 01:11 PM
  3. The Future Of Time
    By JAVO in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-29-2011, 06:06 PM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-14-2011, 09:13 AM
  5. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time
    By chihuahuasrluv in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-14-2011, 12:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO