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  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I don't know (need city planners for this kind of stuff )

    However, it is the ambient temperature that would determine the influence of water vapor (the amount that would stay in the atmosphere)... close to entirely, as I understand it. I don't think we generate water in any larger amounts, except as a by product of energy generation. Water that would be absorbed by the soil would be added to the atmosphere (ie: off city roads), but the majority of that is run off into sewers, which tend to feed into oceans, negating the majority of the effect. The rest of the water tends to be consumed by humans, which also goes directly into the sewage system.

    Having said that, this is just deductive - I don't know the actual numbers. Never heard it as an issue before.

    edit: Just reading into it - Greenhouse gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Seems like it really is just temperature that affects it... humans can't directly influence it easily.
    Well, cities are usually warmer than the surrounding area.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Well, cities are usually warmer than the surrounding area.
    Yes, that's the ambient heat problem. If we add energy to the system outside its normal constraints, entropy is added. Increased heat would increase water vapor (think of it as a force multiplier for climate change). I meant that we cannot directly add to water vapor - it is an incidental impact of increasing heat.

    Burning oil is such an example, as it would push the equilibrium point up. Same with increasing albedo by changing landscaping, as it would increase the amount of trapped solar energy. It's probably a combination of energy being pumped through (ie: fridges, air con, computers, lights, cars, fireplaces, heating) that contributes the majority of the heat.

    If not, you can paint a fraction of the city white and make it more reflective than anything nature can offer.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I have a hard time believing that devices (appliances/vehicles/etc) contribute most of the heat increase in urban areas. They certainly contribute some heat, but if they contributed most, there wouldn't be such a large difference between walking on pavement and grassy back yard.

    Where I grew up in the suburbs of the midwest, water would often sit in gutters rather than running into the sewer (it's pretty flat there). I lived in south Florida for a few years and during the rainy season there would be a daily downpour at around 5pm. With the ground being so flat, most of that water also sat in gutters and ditches. Those downpours never made it cooler, only more humid. I guess what I'm saying is that my experience contradicts your statements. Or maybe the places I've lived have just been anomalies.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #24
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Where I grew up in the suburbs of the midwest, water would often sit in gutters rather than running into the sewer (it's pretty flat there). I lived in south Florida for a few years and during the rainy season there would be a daily downpour at around 5pm. With the ground being so flat, most of that water also sat in gutters and ditches. Those downpours never made it cooler, only more humid. I guess what I'm saying is that my experience contradicts your statements. Or maybe the places I've lived have just been anomalies.
    All local. If you are talking about local sustainability, I would agree. The effect on climate change through the effects you are talking about, not so much.

    However, what you describe has only to do with ambient temperature - it could come from any source. Some places will have a lower albedo effect, such as the 'black top' cities. Others will have reflective metal roofs that are significantly better than the vegetation that was there.I don't know how the numbers compare, however. But given the sheer amount of power that a city has, and the relatively low amount of solar power that would become trapped, I wouldn't be surprised if it ran the other way around.

  5. #25
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I'm beginning to be convinced about CO2 not being the culpurit for global warming, Or that matter, that global warming is a man-made phenomena.
    The bees dying does scare me a lot though. I like honey bees, and the froggies too. Although last I heard, they had pin pointed amphibian decline down to a particular fungus.

    I have to say though what truly concerns me is all the crap we do pump into ourselves and our environment. I have to think a bit to formulate the words that I'm trying to say, but we show so little concern for ourselves, it seems to me only natural that we show little concern for our environment.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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