User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 54

  1. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    type
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    i am somewhat in disbelief that an INTP's argument is coming down to "youre wrong!"
    We're better thinkers than speakers.

  2. #32
    Senior Member NoahFence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    i am somewhat in disbelief that an INTP's argument is coming down to "youre wrong!"

    if you had a technical understanding of how any of this works, you'd be able to tell me how one would go about exploiting this. who, and how, specifically. as someone who does, i can tell you that the shift from local to virtualized processes would reduce security threat from a technical standpoint, and would not pose any additional security threat from employees or any of the like..
    How about I just blow a huge hole in the firewall and let the hackers figure it out? Again, if I'm the watchdog, who's watching me?

    But really that's beside the point. Yes it's sort of doomsdayish, and there's nothing that says a local employee won't go just as postal...but at local you can maybe tell if some situation is brewing. With cloud, you have no clue, there's no oversight within your own company, you're praying that the service provider is on top of things.

    On the security level, you're basically consigning physical security to a site you won't ever visit. That's my real issue with it. If I was going to attack a VM, I'd much rather do it at the console than trying to batter my way through from outside. Also, I've met way, WAY too many hired guns who were just plain sloppy...I actually got hired at a job for the sole reason that the consultants they brought in set up their exchange servers with eval copies, and when the trial period ran out, KAFLUSH, bye bye corporate email. With the cloud you're basically talking about having your entire IT department consist of nothing but hired guns.

    Speaking of hired guns...most service provider models are flawed in one crucial way: they won't expand without already having more business. But if they need to expand, it's because they have too much for their IT guys to handle already. There are periods in which they are overcomitted, leaving your services exposed to neglect and lack of support.

    Here's some enterprise level cons less related to security...my company is smaller, 300 employees, though a fairly extensive setup spanning 8 sites across the eastern seaboard (and texas). Yes I'd still have a job if we went this way, somebody still has to make GPOs like you said, but I'd certainly feel like I was at the mercy of someone else.

    1. You're counting on someone else to do your software updates and maintenance. Chances are good they are not even slightly familiar with the software you're using. You ever heard of or tried to update Crane Cost and Care?

    2. Dependance on another company not getting bought-out/going under/deciding they'd rather get into platinum mining.

    3. Renegotiation of suddenly rising fees becomes a nightmare when faced with the prospect of actually migrating your entire corporate network at once. Please, just...shoot me now?

    4. At the mercy of the provider for what is and is not "allowed".

    5. Encouraging your users to think "Hey, this internet cafe in Singapore is PERFECT for a quick check of my email".

    Ultimately it amounts to outsourcing your entire IT operation. I simply cannot, no way no how, condone that.

    That more to your liking, grey?
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo

  3. #33
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    We're better thinkers than speakers.
    Speak for yourself, man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    if you had a technical understanding of how any of this works, you'd be able to tell me how one would go about exploiting this. who, and how, specifically. as someone who does, i can tell you that the shift from local to virtualized processes would reduce security threat from a technical standpoint, and would not pose any additional security threat from employees or any of the like.

    please tell me how the sensitive data that will need to be stored virtually is different than any other sensitive data that is already stored by companies. please tell me how moving the process from the user's local machine to an online server cluster would create an additional gap in security. please tell me how the current user experience could ever compare (from a security standpoint) from a single, controlled, encrypted virtual session. hell, give me any reasoning for what youre saying, because myself and many commensurate in large enterprises, as well as vendor experts, see this as a good idea.
    I am bored beyond belief with this thread now. Techies are boring.

    I am against centralization on principle. Especially where Microsoft and other monopolistic companies are involved. I'm also against it because it doesn't work. You just don't get the efficiencies of scale with IT projects that you think you will. They are too diverse and things move too quickly. Small and agile is the way to go. The way things have been going - that is why the big boys are trying to wrest back control.

    I can't reveal confidential information about security risks on projects I have worked on. But I can tell you that your control decreases and your risks rise exponentially as you engage more and more sub-contractors to manage parts of a project. IT is so complex now that this is unavoidable for all but the largest organisations, but you don't need to go looking for ways to give control away.

    For any kind of efficiency, these sites are going to be highly standardised, which immediately compromises your flexibility.

    Because Microsoft are such b*stards, everything will be proprietary - they won't support open-source, they will hamstring their customers with an inferior product, just as they have done for years. But this time, you'll have no choice but to upgrade if you still want to access your data.

    Then you have the terrorist risk. Centralising all your data in a few highly conspicuous sites is an engraved invitation. And DR NEVER works the way it is supposed to.

    Number 1 rule in any system design - no single points of failure.
    Why is the Internet designed the way it is? Because the military needed it to be immune to attack. But while the infrastructure may be robust/self-healing, nothing that traverses it can be 100% secure.

    As for the data centres themselves, I'm not saying they can't be secure, I'm just saying they won't be, because humans are fallible, greedy and by and large, incompetent. And there are always backdoors if you know where to look.

    This post is already unforgivably long and boring so if you want to know about my personal misgivings, PM me.

    Also read this.

    Reported incidents.

  4. #34
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    The_Myth_of_Cloud_Computing

    "it's just a giant hamster wheel of pain" lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #35
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    XNXP
    Posts
    1,065

    Default

    Here's an Israeli Palestinian joint venture, using this idea, that helps to bring the two together. G.ho.st - Home Page, Virtual Computer (VC), Web OS (WebOS) and Online Storage
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    istp
    Posts
    1,962

    Default

    I still disagree that this is a bad idea. all the reasons cited did not have exception to the development of physical computing infrastructure. all i see are flaws in application and no real reason why the concept itself is bad... even if cloud computing isn't implemented your transport is already largely virtual, and your data is sitting right next to the WWW on it's way from one client to the next within your [virtual] private network.

    again, i think it's that people don't grasp the technical theory behind virtualization... because it is security, reliability, efficiency, and flexibility embodied. we know this because we've had virtualization on a smaller scale for years. almost every spectrum of IT has utilized the concept in some way with [unsurprisingly] excellent results. yes, there will be growing pains to apply it to something so widespread... there are lots reasons that the people in-the-know are so interested in it, skepticism from internet journalists is nothing new and i have yet to hear why the concept is flawed and not individual applications of it.

    virtualization in this regard is moving the concept of what a system is to span a cluster, this is a powerful ability and the only inherent security threat it brings lies in any holes in the programming thereof. yes, we no longer have physical boundaries, and there are pros and cons to that, but as usual the downsides can be overcome, it is no different than any new, powerful (and thus potentially dangerous) technology.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    How about I just blow a huge hole in the firewall and let the hackers figure it out? Again, if I'm the watchdog, who's watching me?
    1) fundamental problem is not related to virutalization 2) exploitations of this fundamental problem through virtualization only provides additional threat due to scale, and yet there plenty of other examples where scale is drastically increased and this same issue exists without as much concern

    Quote Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
    Ultimately it amounts to outsourcing your entire IT operation. I simply cannot, no way no how, condone that.
    i was just going to say... let's not confuse this with outsourcing. the only thing that is "outsourced" is the infrastructure, the increased efficiency through consolidation allows companies to save money. within your virtual bounds, you still have the same responsibilities.

    theoretically, in a perfect world, it would be most efficient to have a single set of hardware running every virtual UI, because this converts all the large-scale data transport to the virtual sphere, resources can be allocated based on need (in a perfect world, anyways, we'd have enough capacity for that) of course the logistical impossibilities of such a single system prevent it, the theory still rings true.

  7. #37
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    XNXP
    Posts
    1,065

    Default

    I wonder if some variant on this might not help things out..
    How It Works — Cleversafe.com

    Edit: and -
    Anagran - Technology Overview
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  8. #38
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    i have yet to hear why the concept is flawed
    Real world IT doesn't run on concepts. Implementation is all.

    (I can't believe I'm saying this to an S. )
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    istp
    Posts
    1,962

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Real world IT doesn't run on concepts. Implementation is all.

    (I can't believe I'm saying this to an S. )
    present day IT runs on logistics of implementation, sure... after all most companies are not stupid enough to jump onto the latest server OS when it comes out however, moving forward consists of ironing out the logistical flaws of new technologies. so maybe im confused, because it seems like youre saying 'do not want', rather than 'do not want now'... it's entirely possible we're not ready for it, that is much more difficult to say.

    if im misunderstanding you, my apologies. i can understand that from a business management perspective, you would avoid this. i am inclined to look at the technology itself and conclude it is our undeniable future, it's an assumption of mine that companies would know that virtualization is not yet vetted as far as cloud-computing goes and jumping into it head first at this point is probably not a good idea. i have just seen too many good ideas thrown out because of speedbumps in implementation since everyone thinks they have to go back to the drawing board instead of examine the inconsistencies between the idea and the application.

  10. #40
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Technical workers want to maintain control over their corner of the world. News at 11.

    At the business level, I see the benefits. And given what I have seen in high level document management systems, I don't see a lot of data risk. I would go as far as to say that virutalising the whole thing would remove many of the transportation risks and add a much more powerful audit trail to the data.

    It'll be a long run thing though. We are already doing it more and more, and other issues, like DRM and such are going to push it forward. Companies are outright lousy at maintaining their own security and the public knows it. They also keep it hidden from the public and even the law, until it is exposed through damages. And there is no way to trace back what the issue was, most of the time... etc. But companies are very protective of competitive data. That'll be the major issue.

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] Defining Moments in the making of an NT.
    By ladypinkington in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 136
    Last Post: 07-15-2012, 06:42 PM
  2. UFO's in the sky!!
    By Prototype in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-14-2010, 03:51 PM
  3. Am I in the right place?
    By cosmicdancer in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 05-14-2009, 02:36 AM
  4. [NF] Defining Moments in the life of an NF
    By SolitaryWalker in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 05-01-2009, 10:27 PM
  5. Laughing at television more when others are in the room
    By digesthisickness in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 07-21-2007, 10:23 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO