Winnie-the-Pooh

[sarah]

Originally Posted by DynamicG

I think you are very right in that people tend to see Intuition in too many places, but I take issue with many of your assumptions here.

If I'm reading correctly here, do all intuitive children hold up in their rooms trapped in their own heads? Please delineate what, in your definition, would be intuitive 'play'?

Perhaps I spent too much time playing outside with my friends when I was little, but I think I was doing this whole intuition thing wrong.

I hope nothing I said upset you. From what I understand, unless there’s some all-compelling reason to do otherwise, people tend to gravitate towards pastimes that allow them to use their preferred cognitive functions. The reasons why anyone might, for example, write poetry, or take an art class, or start learning a sport, or are as varied as the people doing them.

I think people look for evidence of their own type everywhere, and that this is probably very normal and expected. I’d love to believe the world is full of healthy, well-adjusted _SFP people, and I’m guessing you’d like to believe the world is full of healthy, well-adjusted _NFPs. It’s flattering and makes us feel good about our temperament, our type, and our cognitive function preferences. I know that whether or not my type guesses are correct doesn’t affect my ability to be healthy and well-adjusted.

I’m not really sure there’s a good way to differentiate “N” imagination from “S” imagination. I’ve seen people attempt that, but their theories never match up well with reality. For example, contrary to popular opinion, you can indeed prefer Sensing and have fun imagining a world that doesn’t exist inside your mind. It’s just that when it comes down to what cognitive preferences you prefer and trust using on a daily basis to help you make decisions you care about, you’re going to either choose introverted or extraverted Sensing if you prefer Sensing, and either extraverted or introverted iNtuition if you prefer iNtuition.

Environment also plays a big part in the way we develop. If you had friends who preferred sensing, naturally you’re going to want to try your best to fit in with them. People who prefer Sensing but who have parents who prefer iNtuition are equally as influenced. Both my SJ sister and I grew up in a family where we were encouraged to use our imaginations (by both my ISFJ father and my _NFJ mother), and most of our play centered around making up stories. With regards to your comment, I would expect that extraverts who fit the NF temperament would NOT spend lots of time in their rooms by themselves, and would actively seek out opportunities to engage in play with others, regardless of what the nature of the play is like.

I was making a claim that many people of all types find these Winnie the Pooh stories are charming, and yet nothing in the stories has little if anything to do with the Idealist (NF) temperament pattern outlined by Keirsey, Berens and other type theorists. Below are a couple of quotes from their websites:

Keirsey: Idealists [NFs], as a temperament, are passionately concerned with personal growth and development. Idealists strive to discover who they are and how they can become their best possible self -- always this quest for self-knowledge and self-improvement drives their imagination. And they want to help others make the journey. Idealists are naturally drawn to working with people, and whether in education or counseling, in social services or personnel work, in journalism or the ministry, they are gifted at helping others find their way in life, often inspiring them to grow as individuals and to fulfill their potentials.

Berens: [NFs] core needs are for the meaning and significance that come from having a sense of purpose and working toward some greater good. They need to have a sense of unique identity. They value unity, self-actualization, and authenticity. People of this temperament prefer cooperative interactions with a focus on ethics and morality. They tend to trust their intuition and impressions first and then seek to find the logic and the data to support them. Given their need for empathic relationships, they learn more easily when they can relate to the instructor and the group.

Traits like empathy, altruism, identity-seeking, and a drive to seek out the meaning and purpose in whatever they encounter show up early on in children who fit the NF pattern because they are essential to an NF’s core of being. When someone tells me that a famous person or a book character or whomever is an NF type but this person does NOT exhibit the pattern of traits associated with the Idealist temperament, then I don’t buy the idea of their being an NF. Temperament rules, in other words. It isn’t possible to be an NF and yet fit better with the SP, SJ or NT temperament patterns.

But getting back to Winnie the Pooh, did any of those characters spend a significant part of their storylines wondering how they can gain self-knowledge on their quest for self-actualization? Not to my knowledge. You, however, may have read lots of things into the stories that I didn't. I don't tend to trust my iNtuition, and frankly I stink at using Ne.

If you feel you do access your sensing function quite a lot, then that’s wonderful – you sound like a very balanced person. But…. (and please understand I don’t mean this offensively).. I’m willing to bet that it only feels that way to you. If you actually preferred extraverted Sensing like I do, you’d be not just noticing many more opportunities for taking action in the present moment, but actively taking advantage of them, as well as effortlessly noticing everything in your environment in much greater detail. I know this is laughable, but I feel incredibly “deep” if I spend an hour in any given day talking about metaphysical stuff with my mom. Doesn’t mean I’m actually all that "deep" to someone like you. An NF might well find it hysterical that it took me 37 years to recognize patterns of behavior and figure out some life truths that they already knew about as children.

I daydreamed constantly as a child, and I most definitely prefer Sensing, and fit the pattern of the ISFP type and the SP temperament far better than the INFP type and the NF temperament. Other people I know who seem definitely to fit the Guardian (SJ) temperament also daydream and use their imaginations. For this reason, I just don’t believe anybody who tries to tell me that the only imaginative and “daydreamy” people in this world are those who prefer iNtuition. It’s Just Not True. Also, I totally agree with you that it's Just Not True that people who prefer iNtuition spend all their time living in their heads. Both stereotypes are riduclous and don't do justice to how complex we are as human beings.

As for book and movie characters.... well, I think when it comes right down to it, characters are mostly just not type-able. They can take on any identity the author feels like giving them, whether that fits with type theory or not. It's fun to think about, but not really worth much else.

(if you actually read all of that, then you are a very thoughtful, patient person. I’m stepping off my soapbox now…)

[edcoaching]

Ah, but books where characters are true to type are some of the best reads out there. try anything for young adults by Cynthia Voight, for example.

I'll chime in that Pooh is definitely ISFP in my book for reasons given in the threads above. As is pointed out. Sensing types dream and imagine but usually within the realms of practicality rather than realms that defy reality.

[Jeffster]

Originally Posted by edcoaching

Sensing types dream and imagine but usually within the realms of practicality rather than realms that defy reality.

That's very well put, I need to remember that when I'm trying to explain the difference to people.

[edcoaching]

Jeffster, you can quote it any time...

[Sunshine]

Wait Tigger is like ENTP/ESFP/ENFP/ESTP all at the same time.

Christopher Robin is INFJ? ISFJ? ENFJ? ESFJ? INFP? ISTJ?

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I hadn't thought about it but Sarah has some really good points. There's a lot of S in the whole show. Most definitely harmonic over idealist. Heh even their daydreams are concrete.

Yeah I totally didn't mean concrete. I meant what the people above me said about S daydreaming. Within the realm of practicality and reality.

I IZ BAD WIF WORDS.