John Adams

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INTP or INTJ?

Abigail Adams-- INFJ?

Okay, will back off now for the firestorm of interest in this thread and the fierce debate.

[MacGuffin]

ESTJ

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He did seem a bit more go against the grain than ESTJ and not every extroverted. He didn't seem that Hank Hill-ish.

BTW I am not thinking I know that much about it, just for the sake of discussion and boredom and seeing what other people think.

[MacGuffin]

Once he started talking, it was near impossible to shut up.

I have seen him listed as NT though. He just seems very duty-bound.

[Haphazard]

INTs are difficult to shut up when they get going. It's just that... it's difficult to get them going.

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

Once he started talking, it was near impossible to shut up.
I have seen him listed as NT though. He just seems very duty-bound.

Yes, you are correct about that part underlined.

He did seem duty bound, but he had a more self motivated idea of what that duty was it seemed.

He comes on the stage of history in his 30's really, maybe this leads him to seem more N in someways while being clearly duty bound in others. So ESTJ with developing N due to middle age maybe?

Originally Posted by Haphazard

INTs are difficult to shut up when they get going. It's just that... it's difficult to get them going.

So you think it could be a shadow function that was coming out when he couldn't stop talking? His wife was always warning him against ego glorification in his speeches.

[MacGuffin]

I could go with ENTP or ENTJ.

I'm just loathe to make someone an N because they were famous or accomplished a great deal.

The iNtuitive seems to think every great SP artist was an N for example.

[Haphazard]

Originally Posted by heart

So you think it could be a shadow function that was coming out when he couldn't stop talking? His wife was always warning him against ego glorification in his speeches.

I don't know if it's necessarily shadow functions. Ego glorification could be ENTJ (INTJ, too, a bit, but usually that's more internalized and manifests as the sort of obnoxious smugness we've come to know and love). Or even ESTJ, like you said. That sounds like inferior function acting up.

I just know that when you get INT set on analysis it can be difficult to get them to shut up about it -- if you get an INT chattering on and on, even if it doesn't sound like it, it's probably analysis (or if an INTJ, even planning). I was just saying that you can't rule out INT if the person *can* get chatty. I've even heard that if an INTJ likes somebody and is willing to share things, they won't shut up!

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Originally Posted by MacGuffin

I could go with ENTP or ENTJ.

I'm just loathe to make someone an N because they were famous or accomplished a great deal.

The iNtuitive seems to think every great SP artist was an N for example.

I agree. I think people read "focus on future" for N and think that the SP wanting to be in on the NOW and the latest trends as "future orientated" and just not the same thing.

He doesn't seem to have the multifaceted energy of a ENTP. He seems to be more Fi than Fe in feeling, more Te in thinking now that I am thinking about it.

I don't have a good enough feel for ENTJ types to say he was one, but somehow I just don't think so.

I am leaning more towards that he is ESTJ as you say and that he has more development of N than one might think because he is closer to middle age and the general atmosphere of the Enlightenment and Great Awakening, the independence of the Protestant movement on New Englander's thoughts at the time. Like it is also a very sentimental time as well and the men's letters tend to make many of them look like Feelers when they may not be as well.

[Mondo]

I think John Adams was an INTJ.
INTJ's can be very outspoken when they think they are right.
Adams always thought he was right and saw most other people as his 'intellectual inferiors'.
I don't think he was incredibly duty-bound- he often went against public opinion and did what he thought was right and did the most rational thing (not going to war with France).

Not that an SJ couldn't do this but they would have a hard time going against public opinion- even if they knew what the right answer was. Adams didn't seem to have a hard time doing that. I'm going for INTJ.

I agree about the musical artists by the way.. best example, Bob Dylan!
People say that his songs appeal to NF's but they appeal to all temperaments and his songs seemed somewhat motivated by a mixture of Fi and Se- Se (I guess could be misinterpreted as Ne).

If you want Sensors who were greatly involved with the founding of this country, there are George Washington (ISTJ) and Patrick Henry (ESTP).