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  1. #41
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Bring it.

    You seem to be forgetting that INTJ is shorthand for 'incorrigible being.'
    I have an exam tomorrow on three chapters in which I have yet to read, so I will be a bit delayed in my bringing it and hence beating the incorrigibleness out of your very being, so enjoy your throne of righteous ignorance while you can.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #42
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I mean, when somebody says "wins the internet", do they actually get the internet delivered to them on their doorstep the next day?

    Because if you do, I'm still waiting on it.

  3. #43
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    OMG!!!!

    FUCK, I AM SUPPOSED TO BE STUDYING!!!!

    I already have five _NFP money excerpts and I have only gone through 60 pages.

    SOOOOOOOOOO GOOD!!!

    Gah!!!

    Nostalgia.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #44
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    CaptainChick, why did this book change your life?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #45
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    CaptainChick, why did this book change your life?
    It didn't change my life but it did have a profound affect on me. (lol, so perhaps it did)

    I was 16 when I first read it and I read it in one sitting, taking my time with it, rereading passages that I found to be almost eerily comforting and familiar. I identified with Holden to such an extent that it was the first time that I *truly* felt connected to someone.

    I understood him, I felt him, and he was not crazy but in fact was rather quite sane!!!

    As an idealist, the existential depression that ensued after my "fall from innocence" was an incredibly painful one, and this pain was not in vain, for I was not the only one...

    An intelligent idealist is an agonizing thing to be at times.

    The older we become, the less real and authentic our lives become.

    Gah, Fi overload, to be continued...
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  6. #46
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    You identified with Holden Caufield?

    ...I'm sorry.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #47
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    How disappointing, when you said I won the thread I was going to say "Who says INTJ's can't admit when they're wrong?"

    I identified with Holden Caulfield too, to a degree, and I don't need any sympathy. Merci for saying I made some good points I am fully open to the idea you disagree with me on good merit, but I'd like it if you substantiated your position that he's an ISTP with reference to the book. I'm also presuming you disagreed with some of the conclusions I reached since I think he's an NFP, which bits did you disagree with?

    Oh dear my laptop just burned my leg... never good!

  8. #48
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberryfields View Post
    How disappointing, when you said I won the thread I was going to say "Who says INTJ's can't admit when they're wrong?"
    Ah, there we go again! My claims can be 'unsubstantiated,' but it would be well, wrong, to call them wrong.

    I identified with Holden Caulfield too, to a degree, and I don't need any sympathy. Merci for saying I made some good points I am fully open to the idea you disagree with me on good merit, but I'd like it if you substantiated your position that he's an ISTP with reference to the book. I'm also presuming you disagreed with some of the conclusions I reached since I think he's an NFP, which bits did you disagree with?
    Okay, where to start...

    Quote Originally Posted by strawberryfields View Post
    I think he's an xNFP, leaning more towards I than E by just a little. I adore that book, and read it six times within the first year of picking it up, and I did my english research project on it when I was at school and got full marks. (I am not saying that to say 'whoa I'm awesome!' I just mean I think people *can* have a different perspective to you, and know the book well.)

    I'm an NFP and I identified with him, certainly. I think calling him an S is to totally misunderstand him.
    NFP would mean that he had Ne. I see a lot more Se than Ne. He's more an opportunist in nature than what I've seen of Ne types (particularly INPs).

    A huge element of that book is that Holden is confused and lost, since he is asking big questions about the world and not finding answers. Think of the ever famous ducks; Holden is asking questions about them because on an intuitive level he feels a connection with them. He desperately seeks to 'connect' with people, and Mr Antolini is clearly an N and that is a teacher who's had a great deal of influence over him.
    And yet he immediately runs when he starts to think that he's a 'flit'. For the connection to be broken so easily doesn't seem, well, very NFP-ish.

    Holden despises 'phoniness' and part of that is shallowness and convention. Of course he fails to truly grapple with peoples motives, and ironically is a bit of a hypocrite as a result, but I think J.D Salinger wants to portray Holden as someone who in a sense realises he's a hypocrite. He feels lost in the world and isolates himself by feeling different to everyone else and labelling it because of their phoniness. But his insights can be incredibly perceptive -particularly about people -
    He is? What I saw was a closed system, when he thought about people.

    and he obviously has a lot of depth. He loves fiction and getting caught up in another world through reading a book, again that seems fairly NF to me; escapism through literature.

    I think he's an NF; he seems to fit the idealist portrait. He's obviously highly traumatised by the death of his younger brother, and has an emotional response to that (smashing all the windows in the garage).
    Having an emotional response like this I don't think can be monopolized by NF types.

    He has a strong sense of how the world 'ought' to be,
    Introverted judgment. IxxP.

    and has a deep caring side which is demonstrated in how he treats his sister and the fact at regular times in the book there are people who he empathises and sympathises with (the Head teachers daughter, Ackley, Jane). Holden really values the nuns for altruistically caring for others, and what he perceives as authenticity; desire for authenticity is very NF.

    In terms of I/E, I think it's difficult to tell because Holden is depressed and that has a natural impact on whether or not you appear extroverted. He certainly has extroverted traits; he seeks out the company of others throughout the book, sometimes people he doesn't even know very well, and obviously has a wide circle of acquaintances. However, I think part of that is in hope they will elucidate things for him and help him to understand why he is as he is, and at other times he simply wants distraction from how bad he feels. I think he's possibly an I though, since he's very introspective, wants time alone, reads a lot, sometimes can't be bothered with humanity as a whole, and seeks deep meaningful connections on a one-on-one level. I think he is hesitant to share his inner world with others, which can also be an introverted thing. I am not sure socialising for the sake of socialising would appeal to him. The log cabin fantasy at the end could be seen as an introverted thing, but I think that's his idea of the ultimate way of cutting himself off from humanity in order to avoid pain. There's a great paradox throughout the book; Holden longs for people to understand and accept him, but equally he despises many elements of the human condition and isolates himself from people. He spends the book vacillating between the two, hence E/I being difficult to determine.

    I see nobody has questioned if he's a P, I think that's pretty self-evident

    I think this book is grossly misunderstood. Teenagers who say 'I love Holden, finally someone who understands me!' and adults who say 'What a whiny brat', in my opinion, miss J.D Salinger's point. I don't think J.D Salinger is endorsing everything Holden says. You're *meant* to recognise that Holden is a bit of a hypocrite and isolating himself from the world through a pseudo-superiority complex. I think you're meant to look beyond that and question why he is so lost, and it particularly relates back to unexpressed grief regarding his brother and other traumatic events. I can genuinely say that 'The Catcher in the Rye' is the only fictional book to change my life, not 'cause I agreed with Holden, but cause I saw elements of himself he was blind to that related to moi.
    This last part made me very happy.

    I know this isn't very substantial... but let me try to state my point.

    His voice sounds like an ISTP. I can't quite put my finger on why. He takes advantage of everything he finds (except for girls -- and I think the only reason why he seems 'extroverted' at all is because of this). I know there's the stereotype that STPs don't read, but I know enough to know otherwise. They can end up in existentialism...

    Now there's the question as to where the trauma came from. I guess one could say that it was all his little brother, but I got the impression that it was more diffuse than that. His brother may have started the spiral, but after that it just got worse.

    What I see is that the guy had a framework that developed a few cracks when his brother died, and then it just got weaker and weaker from there, until it finally just broke, and he was still trying to use it (thus the constant hypocrisy).

    Whether this original framework was more Fi or Ti with a layer of awful Fe over it, I can't tell. The thing is that I just don't see any standards as to how Caufield's approval can be reached. If there is Fi, there must be Te -- no matter how awful or corrupted.

    I wonder if I make any sense?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #49
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    You identified with Holden Caufield?

    ...I'm sorry.
    That is the fundamental answer as to why anyone likes that book, that they "identify" with it. That is by far the most common response when asked why the book is good, and I've never heard it said even remotely as often about any other book, or story at all for that matter.

    That's fascinating and confusing to me. I didn't relate to Holden much at all, and I kind of hated him. It's not a very long book, but I slogged through it in like two weeks. Characters aside, I thought the whole story was really boring and hated the way it was told. But anyway, my ENFP friend says it's one of her favorite books and (surprise, surprise) she said she had this "I'm not alone moment" when she first read it. I then told her that I found Holden insufferably irritating in his hypocracy, inconsistency, and lack of reasoning. I also thought he was self-absorbed.

    The main things I and Holden seemed to have in common is that we both hated society, and felt a lot of frustration, but that's it. Those are only two, rather general things. Our way of handling those opinions are entirely different. One of my theories is that being home-schooled has made it harder for me to connect with him. Maybe his experiences with public school and it's impact on his life (which is apparently very large) is one of the things that people relate to, and it's one that I obviously wouldn't know. One thing that struck me as funny though, was that my friend defended a number of Holden's character flaws by saying "he's only seventeen". I said, "yeah?..."
    I was eighteen when I read the book, and I could tell you I was more mature than Holden when I was fifteen...
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #50
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    FWIW: My INTJ best friend in high school absolutely loved Catcher in the Rye , too.

    "Take cars," I said. I said it in this very quiet voice. "Take most people, they're crazy about cars. They worry if they get a little scratch on them, and they're always talking about how many miles they get to a gallon, and if they get a brand-new car already they start thinking about trading it in for one that's even newer. I don't even like old cars. I mean they don't even interest me. I'd rather have a goddamn horse. A horse is at least human, for God's sake. A horse you can at least-"

    "I don't know what you're even talking about," old Sally said. " You jump from one-"

    <more dialog>

    ""You ought to go to a boy' school sometime. Try it sometime," I said. " It's full of phonies, and all you do is study so you can learn enough to be smart enough to be able to buy a goddamn Cadillac some day, and you have to keep making believe you give a damn if the football team loses, and all you do is talk about girls and liquor and sex all day, and everybody sticks together in these dirty little goddamn cliques. The guys that are on the basketball team stick together, the Catholics stick together, the goddamn intellectuals stick together, the guys that play bridge stick together. Even the guys that belong to the goddamn Book-of-the-Month Club stick together. If you try to have a little intelligent-"
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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