The Joker (the Dark Knight)

[simulatedworld]

Hmmm...You know, I often wonder if the Ts in a type are supposed to somehow be related to planning and whatnot....every type can be have plans....Joker being a chaotic character (he has a plan in the sense that he has his values, which are very well defined, but he carries out "the plan" in a pretty chaotic fashion)... F wouldn't feel out of place.

I think he might be an idealist (NF). I think there is this idea that NFs can't be evil or something...I mean, how many villains are typed as NF? But at the end of the day it's how the person uses his/her functions right? Would a NT leave his life to chance (hospital scene) ?

So my question is why not ENFP?

I'd say Harvey might be an ENTP.

A crazy NTP who's obsessed with random chance and generating chaos for its own sake might very well leave his life in the hands of chance. He's clearly not after any realistic goal.

Harvey seems more ENFJ to me.

 

[Valuable_Money]

His motivation is to have fun? Disagree.

"It's about sending a message" I believe were his words in that burning of the pyramid of cash scene.

"I wont kill you because its too much fun"

"...what and go back to ripping off mob banks?"

ect. ect.

 

[Moiety]

A crazy NTP who's obsessed with random chance and generating chaos for its own sake might very well leave his life in the hands of chance. He's clearly not after any realistic goal..

Generating chaos was his (realistic) goal.

"I wont kill you because its too much fun"

"...what and go back to ripping off mob banks?"

ect. ect.

The Joker's speech alternated between short-term goal and long-term goal reference, just like normal people do all the time. He was clearly having a blast generating chaos, but when we see him talk in a more (apparently) candid manner (with Batman when incarcerated, with Batman near the end...) , he seems to have a well defined purpose.

He doesn't like when he's called crazy (meeting with the mob leaders) and whatever his story is, seems to have been quite traumatic (scars stories). We see some short-lived anger outburst that could also resemble tertiary Te (his first TV recording with a hostage for example).


I'm not saying he is an ENFP. But I am saying I don't think it's clear cut.

 

[redacted]

Joker is ENTP for sure y'alls.

 

[AOA]

Here's what I think...

Joker: ENTP
Batman: ISTJ
Harvey Dent: ENTJ
Com. Gordon: ESTJ
Alfred: ISFJ

 

[Speed Gavroche]

The Joker: ENTP
Batman/Bruce Wayne: ISTJ
Harvey Dent: ESTJ
Rachel: ENFJ
Lucius Fox: INTP
Com. Gordon: ISTJ
Alfred: ISFJ

 

[CJ99]

Jokers ENTP!!!!!
He seems to cause chaos just to show how fragile order is. Also he plans everything but will then happily through it away and improvise. Thats an Ne thing especially an ENTP thing.
Batman ISTP because of his drive and sheer amount of motivation he has a goal and he works towards it with everything he has and for such an emotional event to trigger it all he shows very little emotion over it and definate sign of ISTP. And Ti can plan it very good at it! especially Ti-Ni! and Se helps him cope with when it all goes wrong!

 

[simulatedworld]

The Joker: ENTP
Batman/Bruce Wayne: ISTJ
Harvey Dent: ESTJ
Rachel: ENFJ
Lucius Fox: INTP
Com. Gordon: ISTJ
Alfred: ISFJ

This is pretty good; can you expound on Harvey ESTJ a bit though? I really got a lot of Fe from him...I could see either EFJ type.

I think ISTJ is very good for Bruce. ISTP seems pretty off.

Also I really get INFJ from Gordon for some reason. I think he has a lot of that Ni mystic foresight thing, but I dunno, I'd have to go back and watch these movies again with typology in mind.

 

[incubustribute]

The way I like to see the Joker is as a mastermind. To me, his character is very similar to the Emperor in Star Wars (yaaaa im gonna get flak for that comment). The Joker's actions may be different then the Emperor but his intentions, similar. He takes people he sees fit to execute his plan. Look at Harvey Dent. Look at the people on the boat (failed plan). He even tried to use Batman. In the beginning, he used all of those crooks. Though he is quite chaotic, he is a very very intelligent mastermind that finds people he sees fit to execute his plans (yes he does have plans, he is not just a dog chasing cars). Ok, maybe ENTJ, though I'm stil sticking with I, the I vs E isn't important in this case. Also, just because they do not display introvertedness doesn't lend to him being an E.

So what do you think he would be?

I really like this comparison actually. However, I think (deep down) the Emperor actually believed in what he was doing. The Joker doesn't believe in anything except showing people why their attempts to control things are silly and irrational. He does not believe in right verses wrong, only fun vs. boring. This is very very very ENTP. The only difference is, he exercises his iNtuition to the result of killing people (he's an unhealthy ENTP), but the value systems are very much the same. His Ti just hasn't exactly told him that killing people is wrong because A B and C, it simply informed him that moral dilemmas are for the weak minded. His reaction is to play with people and inject them into his scenarios, whereas most ENTP's would simply take a clever verbal undercut. The "going with the flow and adapting to scenarios" is simply an ExxP trait, extroverted perception dominant. It means you take in your surroundings first before making judgments.

 

[kyuuei]

I'd agree on INFJ for Gordon. He's so into the poetic justice that he supports batman at all.

Batman - ISTJ. I don't think the inability to deal with emotiona trauma equates one to an F.

Joker - I want to say ENFP. Either way, I see him being everything Batman is not. If they didn't have the 'we're so opposite we're alike' facet going I don't think it'd be near the drama it is in the movie. So it'd just make sense for him to be an insane version of the opposite type. I think ENFPs are so good a feeling people out, especially to fit their purposes.. So I could easily see the mastermind-parts being explained with that. I don't think all ENFPs have to be good guys.

Alfred I'd agree with the ISFJ. I don't know about Harvey.

 

[incubustribute]

Be careful when attempting to type characters, especially main characters, based on their love relationships in the movie. There's a tendency to type F for "lovers" and T for "fighters," when in reality, this is not necessarily true. This is not necessarily directed at anyone in particular, just a general pointer based on what I've noticed.

 

[incubustribute]

This is pretty good; can you expound on Harvey ESTJ a bit though? I really got a lot of Fe from him...I could see either EFJ type.

I think ISTJ is very good for Bruce. ISTP seems pretty off.

Also I really get INFJ from Gordon for some reason. I think he has a lot of that Ni mystic foresight thing, but I dunno, I'd have to go back and watch these movies again with typology in mind.

Oh hey simulated, didn't see you :hi:

I could see Harvey as ENFJ. Ni supporting Fe is pretty evident through the movie. I agree though, the last time I watched it, I wasn't thinking about MBTI.

 

[Night]

Harvey Dent - ENFJ
The Joker - ENTP

Thanks.

Jack Napier is his comics name. Kind of a worldplay. Jackanape.

The Joker is highly similar to Loki. God of lies; of misperception and deceit. Loki is a foil to Thor, as Batman is a converse to The Joker. (As Ra's was to Bruce)

One represents order, parsimony and rank. The other is erraticism; entropy and disarray. Kind of the proverbial Ying/Yang cohesion, given contemporary context.

In medieval times, the jester was the only individual able to publicly disagree with the King.

Here are some brief insights into certain psychological elements of two Dark Knight characters:



Harvey Dent

Love; intellect; financial stability - for most, these are compound sums that cooperate to form the composite entity know as "happiness". Happiness seems best described to me as freedom - freedom from want. Freedom as balance.

Want as an extension of insecurity - I have no food. I need food. I must earn money/steal/etc to get food. Yet, even as we work to satisfy our desire for a lifestyle absent from want ("happiness", if you agree) many become so incensed with the ideology of acquisition, we lose sight of our original goal to achieve balance.

Rewards - an expression of success - often evolve into an element of greater value than our fundamental goal. Happiness as not only an abundance of food, but a wealth of materials. A storehouse of personal knowledge. A piggybank of distractions.

Harvey Dent is a brilliant representation of our (human) insatiable desire to fill our lives with things we believe will make us happy.

Dent's food is justice. His decorum is the penal system. When a disconnect appears between what he expects (to achieve happiness/balance), he becomes desperate. He makes decisions that betray his need for good. He chooses the path of quickest resolution - he drops his principles and becomes an agent of insatiable desire - after Rachel's death, revenge consumes him. Makes him forget who he is.

What was once aligned to inspire justice and community now functions to service his desire to reintroduce balance (happiness - Rachel) into his life.

Distractions can destroy.

So can the pursuit of happiness.


Jack A. Napier

Meaning is an iceberg. What motivates us to find purpose is always built on layers of emotion and/or instinctual obligation (towards upholding community and ourselves).

The Joker is similar to Johnny Ringo. A blackhole in place of a heart. Hopelessness is sometimes the result of genetic chance; other times it is inspired.

Like the Joker, we seek balance. We work to establish identity within this balance inside our immediate environment (where we work; who we talk to; how we behave...).

The Joker represents Void - darkness without meaning or form. Chaos as a way to sensibly live - a world "without rules", as he states.

Yet, his rules remain firm. A world without rules is a world governed by rules.

When we lose sight of ourselves, we find but chaos and uncertainty. Light leaves us and darkness infiltrates. What we once loved can become poisonous to us.

The Joker is unchecked desire. Imbalance. Chaos. He is less a villain than a horrifying demiurge. His desires are absolutely uncompromising.

An analogue to The Joker is Judge Holden. A (real) serial killer, popularly chronicled in Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian.


Intelligence is not enough to survive.

No man is an island.

No angel/demon an orphan.


We must choose. Choice is our only hope. It is choice that destroys.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

This is pretty good; can you expound on Harvey ESTJ a bit though? I really got a lot of Fe from him...I could see either EFJ type.

Actually, we can see Fe from every SJs, even xSTJs, because Si leads them to be hardly concerned about the group, its values, its traditions and about take responsability for. It's particulary real about ESTJ because of their In-Charge nature. Though Harvey has developped his intuitive and feeling side, he is naturally more at ease whan approach things practically and logicaly, even in crisis situations. Fi is clearly his inferior, he overcomes easily his internals feelins to follows stricts principles of justice, until the Joker reaches to crack him down. I think both Bruce and Harvey are the logical guardians archetype, Batman is the chart-the-course guardian and Harvey the in-charge.

I think ISTJ is very good for Bruce. ISTP seems pretty off.

I've also thought he could be ISTP, but I think he's just a laid back ISTJ than an ISTP.

Also I really get INFJ from Gordon for some reason. I think he has a lot of that Ni mystic foresight thing, but I dunno, I'd have to go back and watch these movies again with typology in mind.

I don't think so. Gordon is the average american guy wich try to hel the community as well as he can, I say he's ISTJ. He has good Ni, yes, but Harvey and Batman have too, Guardians can have good Ni, especially when it's time to think about rules, principles, duty, those types of stuff.

 

[kyuuei]

I don't think so for Gordon. He seemed to think outside of the box. I could see an ISTJ police officer not wanting much to do with a vigilante. I think the stunts he pulls and the bravery he musters and his interactions with his family.. the way he said what he said to his son. INFJ.

 

[simulatedworld]

Harvey Dent - ENFJ
The Joker - ENTP

All of this is very good I think.

 

[relentless]

batman: xstj
dent: esfj
joker: entp- no dought, systimaticly creats caose Ne, in order to surport and prove a screwed up internal system of principals (poorly devaloped secondary Ti shown very clearly when he cant understand why the people on the ferries didn't blow each other up, Ti, when less devaloped often seems to refeuse to take into acount anything which dosn't suport it's theorys).
bruce wane: in this movie, infj/infp
scare crow: entj (experiments on archm innmates show Te Ni working togther to devalop technologys with little regard for the effect on people, low Fe)
gorden: enfj
Two face: pissed off estj

 

[Prototype]

The Joker - ENTP ENTJ

Also:

Batman - ISTP INTP
Alfred - ISFJ

... That's better!

 

[Valuable_Money]

... That's better!

You feel like sharing with the rest of the class how your arrived upon those conclusions?

 

[relentless]

no way the joker is entj
look at his motivation! xntjs infact judgers in general always have a concreet gole in mind. an entj villian would seek money or power. he would not , under any circumstances burn a massive pile of money, this does not help the joker's goals, it is irational and goes against evering Te stands for. (listen to alfreds speech about the jewl thief). this is why batman has trouble understanding joker, he has strong Te.

joker's motervation stems from wanting to valadate his world view, that people are inherently evil and are "only as good as the world allows them to be" this desire to valadate an internal, intellectual theory shows Ti.

joker also Fe as focuses strongly on devaloping his identity in the eves of gothem who "deserve a better class of crimnal" in his ouw fuked up way he wants to be famous,even popular.

Fe is also seen as joker is a master manipulator of emotions, just look at how he gets the cop to attack him in the cell even when the cop knows "he'll enjoy it, i'l just have to try and enjoy it more".

jokers Ne is eveadent through not only through his crazy manerisms, (dressing up as a killer clown is very entp) but his ability for on the spot planing. although all NTs are planners introverts couldn't adapt as well as joker, he expertly uses external factors to get what he wants. his plans also rely on intuition, he makes them up as he goes, leading Te prob wouldent make such accurate plans, Ni is like a chess player thinking 15 moves a head, less flexable and can be stumped by the unexpected (wich rairly happens as Ni preplans all contingencies) while Ne has about 50 different plans and aplys them depending on context and situation. joker seems more flexable then scheeming.