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  1. #71
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valuable_Money View Post
    Im sorry but aside from the bank robbery which was planned with near omniscient attention to detail none of these plans are really that complex. Infact they can be summed up in about one sentence.

    Mafia: "People with guns are going to be angry at me so ill threaten to blow them up."

    The hospital cant really be spoken for since no one actualy knows how he did it, it was actualy a bit of a writer copout "Hes the joker, he can do that"

    Hostages: "I dress the hostages as the clowns they shoot the clowns."

    Also he doesnt seem to have any kind of ni -fi "vision" going on, hes just expressing hes hatred of the boring natural order of htings.(inferior Si)

    YouTube - The Dark Knight - Hospital Scene (Two-Face and Joker) HQ

    That video is the definition of inferior Si.
    Is it possible that he wants Batman (and Gotham) to think he is against planning and scheming, when in fact he does have internal motivations for such things?

  2. #72
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    The funny thing about the joker is that he hated schemers, but was the greatest schemer of them all...

  3. #73
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valuable_Money View Post
    Im sorry but aside from the bank robbery which was planned with near omniscient attention to detail none of these plans are really that complex. Infact they can be summed up in about one sentence.

    Mafia: "People with guns are going to be angry at me so ill threaten to blow them up."

    The hospital cant really be spoken for since no one actualy knows how he did it, it was actualy a bit of a writer copout "Hes the joker, he can do that"

    Hostages: "I dress the hostages as the clowns they shoot the clowns."

    Also he doesnt seem to have any kind of ni -fi "vision" going on, hes just expressing hes hatred of the boring natural order of htings.(inferior Si)

    YouTube - The Dark Knight - Hospital Scene (Two-Face and Joker) HQ

    That video is the definition of inferior Si.
    dAMIT that is also a good argument. This P/J split is embarrassing!

  4. #74
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Since this is one of the rare movies I actually watched I will add my 2 cents.


    I am going with ENTJ for Joker.

    Nah......


    And here is why.


    The guy is crazy that is too obvious. But is he really random ?
    I think not.
    ENTPs are not random when they have a goal in mind.

    He talks about "chaos, anarchy and bla bla bla" quite a bit. What makes him look like a Ne dom but his actions are showing something else entirely.
    When he and his gang were robbing the bank at the beginning you can clearly see how he plans everything and how his mind actually works.
    ENTPs are great at planning in such a way as to maneuver people to do their work for them, from within the system, without the people even being aware of their part in it. It's more sneaky.

    ENTJs maneuver people to do the work, period, and they're more likely to do it from outside the system, and are not as sneaky with maneuvering people.

    It's the Fe-charm.

    Plus stilling money is a quite Se thing to do.
    Yeah, but, he didn't give two shits about the money. It wasn't about the money. He burned it in the end. This is one of the most obvious cases for ENTP versus ENTJ.....

    An ENTP's end goal can very well be to just it stick to the system, to amuse themselves....and ENTJ's goal is much more external, practically-based, and, I can't see an ENTJ making all that elaborate plans and scheme just to prove that 'he can because people let him' - ENTP, on the other hand, very likely.

    He is crazy and "playful" but his not random as he likes to present himself. Since that is only his image. (and ENTJs do alot of things just to preserve their image)
    I'm really curious as to how you understand ENTP and randomness.

    While his true goal is fulfiling his vision. Which is Gotham in a complete chaos. (what is Ni - Fi in a terms of MBTI)
    He shows zero Fi to me.....there is no 'personal touch' to him, even the story of his scar and how he got it, became a running gag of switching it up, every time the story was retold.

    So when you take a look at all of this you will realize that there is master plan going on. And the fact that people seem to miss it is exactly what makes it a master plan.
    But, what was the master plan FOR? What did he want to achieve?

    In this, lies the clarity of the crazy-ENTP bend versus crazy-ENTJ.


    I mean people obviously don't seem to realize that just because someone is creating a mess that the person can be a J a the same time. The real question here is "How do you raise hell?" instead of "Do you rise hell?"
    Nah, the question is the motive......"why did you raise hell?"

    ENTP: Jus' cuz...to see if I could. [He's bored with the status quo....hence, the want for chaos]


    So my vote goes to ENTJ.
    ENTP gone whack.

  5. #75
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Skill at planning has nothing to do with J/P, if everything points to him being ENTP except for his skill at planning, then Occam's razor says he's an ENTP that is good at planning.

    He seems like a very reactive kind of a guy, sure he can plan well but he also tosses those plans aside on a whim.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  6. #76
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Qre: +1

    I'm convinced I was right in the first place

  7. #77
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Yes Q's argument is good. Any ENTJ you see from the Joker is probably just from his Hollywooded super abilities. Some fictional characters will combine all the good things about different types...for instance, John Travolta's character in Get Shorty is clearly ESTP in some scenes and clearly ENTP in others; he gets the best of both worlds because he's not a real person.

    But Joker is still incredibly ENTP. He had no real end goal; as Alfred pointed out, "Some men just want to watch the world burn." ENTPs will make calculated plans insofar as they can get something out of it (it's impossible to succeed at anything without SOME measure of planning), but this character just oozes psycho ENTP. All he wants to do is play games! He wants to generate new conditions and see what happens (as in the social experiment scene with the boats.) Pe-dom impulsiveness is really obvious here, I think.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #78
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    Yeah, but, he didn't give two shits about the money. It wasn't about the money. He burned it in the end. This is one of the most obvious cases for ENTP versus ENTJ.....
    I know (at least) one ENTJ who would burn the money if placed in the same situation...

    Power has always been more fun than money.

    Burning the money was the smartest thing the joker did. By showing that the rules didn't apply to him (he didn't care about money), he showed everyone how much power he really had.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Skill at planning has nothing to do with J/P, if everything points to him being ENTP except for his skill at planning, then Occam's razor says he's an ENTP that is good at planning.
    Yes. This. Thank you for that clarification. P does not equal lack of skill in planning.

    When I'm serious about a plan, I have pretty much every possibility that is likely to arise, covered, by another aspect of the same plan, and so forth.


    He seems like a very reactive kind of a guy, sure he can plan well but he also tosses those plans aside on a whim.
    , there were a lot of moments of Ne screaming out of the Joker.

  10. #80
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I know (at least) one ENTJ who would burn the money if placed in the same situation...

    Power has always been more fun than money.

    Burning the money was the smartest thing the joker did. By showing that the rules didn't apply to him (he didn't care about money), he showed everyone how much power he really had.
    Have you ever seen an ENTJ whose plan has failed, and who has to come up with a new approach on the spot? They're miserably bad at this. They characteristically melt down and flip their shit because there's no time to work out a new plan ahead of time.

    The Joker takes it a challenge when plans get changed, and sometimes he'll change them arbitrarily just for the amusement and the rush he gets from discovering what happens in a new situation. It's very Ne. I don't really see much Te at all.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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