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  1. #11
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by therealaquaman View Post
    I'm saying since he values fairness and harmony over being just, so he is inclined to F more than T. Jeez.
    How would you differentiate fairness and justice? I see them as, if not exactly the same, then hopelessly intertwined. As an ESTJ, I value them both quite a bit.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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  2. #12

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    I likewise enjoy the show and the depth it gives to its themes and characters.

    While I understand why some here would classify Matt/Darevdevil as ISTP, I have to admit this is not likely to be the case here. At least in the show, Matt has a very strong set of values and principles. As Fisk summarized Matt, he is an ideologist. He has a very sophisticated and complex vision of how things ought to be. He tries to keep himself realistic in words and thoughts, but his actions give out his frustration with the actual reality of this world, and, in particular, of the Hell's Kitchen. He is an idealist who is yet to learn to be clever as in terms of being cautious and colder than he actually is (this is what Stick tried to teach him all the time). Matt strongly believes in the importance of truth, just as as he does in the importance of justice. However, if we look at how he implements his values into his conduct, we see his tendency to force things. The very fact that he started from an alter ego, i.e. instead of being just Matt or Daredevil only, he opted for the difficult combo, already explains that he is ready to take different means to reach his goals. Being Daredevil at night, wearing the mask, allows him to reach goals the other, more immediate way. This forcing gives us the following two fundamentals about his nature. Firstly, he seeks the truth, but he also forces it upon others, and, in a way that aligns with his vision. That means he cares more about what is happening in the outside world than in his own. Yet, he develops a complex idea of how that world is and seeks to change it fit in with his vision. This gives the second insight, he uses conviction. Both as Matt and as Daredevil, this character seeks to find the truth that suits him, place into the world system, and force it if it does not work so easily. This is where many of his weaknesses are. Matt is good at seeing his complex vision, but not necessarily so implementing it. He is poor at planning things out. Not because he cannot plan, but because his vision is more visible to him than the reality. At this point in his development, Matt still thinks he can get things as he wants them to be in a way that he wants them to be attained. And, because of this belief and negligence of what if things go wrong, he allows for many errors. He becomes then enraged at the obstacles that result partially from his own fault of not being realistic enough and cautious. However, because he is so good at connecting the dots, Matt does learn his lessons and grows to become better. It is just that the harder are the lessons the more time they take to be fully implemented into the conduct.

    On the basis of this and other aspects, I do not see Matt/Daredevil as ISTP. An ISTP hero would be less in touch with the importance of morals and principles. Does not mean they do not have them, but rather that these play the pawns' role on their chess board. Instead, they are much cooler in their head, composed and practical. They are very much in touch with reality (perhaps most of all, coupled by ESTJ) and thus are better at adapting to the most unexpected, which is what Matt is struggling with. ISTPs are more driven by the victory rather than a vision. They would be more tactful and calm, yet because they do not have that strong vision that fully captivates them to become the martyrs, they instead opt for their means and methods which they will use to win. The classic ISTP superheroes are assassins and simply bad ass, such as Wolverine and Rorschach. They are very much in touch with reality and take it for what it is. They care less about the meaning and vision and more about their skills and wins.

    Matt is not ISTP, yet he borrows many qualities at different amplitudes that make up ISTPs. But, Matt is all about the meaning of what truth is and what he wants the world to be like. This is now very paradoxical and perhaps serves the specific reason why he needs the alter ego. He wants to find the truth, yet he also wants the truth that sits along with his ideals. He assigns it a meaning, takes it for the fact and forces it on others. This is his paradox, this is also his nature and his duplicity. He wants justice, but he gets it using different ways. He is committed to his ideals, yet he is not in touch with reality enough to implement it smoothly. He does not like compromise, yet he gradually learns that he has to modify his conduct to be more aware of how things can go wrong. He is no other type but INFJ. His characters embodies exactly what would be if INFJ was a superhero. He is one of the few fictional examples that nail down what to expect from the INFJ that wears the mask.
    Likes Ene, Jeremy8419 liked this post

  3. #13

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    Now, if Matt/Daredevil is an INFJ, is Fisk also an INFJ?

    At some point in the show, Fisk makes the first step in his communication with Daredevil. He tells him that they are both similar.

    This is true. Fisk, like may others here nicely summarized, has a long-term vision. A vision that captivates him and drives him to become someone. However, his vision is not clear and is not detailed and logical as what the vision of INTJ would be like. Instead, his vision is like a painting that he sees on that bland picture he bought from Vanessa. And, Vanessa also sees that Fisk is an artist. He does see beauty and he wants to bring it to his society as if he was Prometheus. It is just that he wants it using the means he is given to coordinate. Because of a different background and a different experience, Fisk has one line in his INFJ running opposite to Matt's INFJ. Both want the same painting, but using different colors. Matt's means run opposite to Fisk's. And, this is because of how the reality distributed these tools to them. Matt has to wear the mask to hide his true face and yet show his true self. Fisk also wears the mask to show his true face and hide his true self. He uses his name over what he does, and gets to do this more so as the season progresses. However, face does not equal self but is only another membrane of the actual content. Fisk also has a trauma which has a tremendous impact on his understanding and conduct with other people. This is also why his set of values is different from Matt's though it requires the same word to express it. Fisk may believe in justice, but he sees different ways to implement it. He does see more beautiful in the apparent. He wants the city clean and people safe. Matt, however, wants them to be rightful and honest. No matter how cliche it is, but 'two sides of the same coin' is what describes their positioning on the opposite ends of the same axis.

    This show is one of the rare representations in entertainment of what INFJ vs INFJ would be like.
    Likes Ene, N/A liked this post

  4. #14

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    @ObnoXious I don't have time to go into it right now as I am so swamped with things to do, but will hopefully be back in a day or two, but I want to go on record as saying, "I think these two posts are AWESOME!!!!" And reflect much of my own thoughts about both these characters. I haven't had the time to sit down and spell it out so eloquently as you just did, but yes, I do see both these characters just as you have said. As far as I'm concerned, you've nailed it.

    I read it somewhere once that the ultimate comic book villain is usually the dark side of the hero or rather, what the hero would be if he or she had chosen a different path.
    Last edited by Ene; 04-25-2015 at 07:24 PM.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @ObnoXious I don't have time to go into it right now as I am so swamped with things to do, but will hopefully be back in a day or two, but I want to go on record as saying, "I think these two posts are AWESOME!!!!" And reflect much of my own thoughts about both these characters. I haven't had the time to sit down and spell it out so eloquently as you just did, but yes, I do see both these characters just as you have said. As far as I'm concerned, you're nailed it.

    I read it somewhere once that the ultimate comic book villain is usually the dark side of the hero or rather, what the hero would be if he or she had chosen a different path.
    Thank you. I am flattered. If you find time, please do share your take on the characters.

    I completely agree with the part about the parallels running between protagonists and antagonists and how often it would one same entity but exposed to different conditions.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ObnoXious View Post
    Thank you. I am flattered. If you find time, please do share your take on the characters.

    I completely agree with the part about the parallels running between protagonists and antagonists and how often it would one same entity but exposed to different conditions.
    What you've said resonates so well with my own thoughts. However, I will add some additional things that have gone through my mind that I feel point to Matt/Daredevil being an INFJ.

    Here goes:

    Matt Murdock consistently puts the good of others above his own good, even to the point of not acknowledging his own feelings, a very INFJ thing to do.

    “This city needs me in that mask, Foggy,” Matt tells Foggy in episode ten. In the same episode he reveals that he became a vigilante after hearing a little girl being abused by her father. Matt wanted to help the child. His primary and initial motive in putting on the mask was compassion. He wanted to make a difference.

    Matt and Foggy forego a lucrative career to help Hell's Kitchen and it was Matt's idea, his humanitarian dream. He is driven to save people. We could say he has a bit of a martyr, messianic or savior complex. He is very much a humanitarian with a dream. He isn't as haphazard as he seems. He planned what he would do while in college and then he followed the plan. He worked hard and earned top grades, also a very INFJ-like thing to do.

    He has a charming smile that warms his whole face and makes him seem somehow vulnerable, same thing when he cries. He's cute, but not because of the way he looks, but because he's got enough Fe to put people at ease, but he's also quick to call people on their BS. He gives off a certain vulnerability and goodness vibe that makes Claire want to help him. He is in constant conflict with his anger (maybe he's a 9w8? Haha.)

    He fights for those who can't fight for themselves. He wants to do the right thing, what's best for the under-privileged of Hell's Kitchen, and he battles guilt when he feels he has come up short. He also is a spiritual man and seeks guidance from his faith.

    Also, in the scene where he is presenting a case and wins, I think his entire approach is a combo of Ni-Fe-Ti....he reads the jury, establishes the facts and presents them in undeniable terms.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  7. #17
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    I know the types of only the following people.

    Sticks - ISTJ
    Fisk - 8w9 or 1w9

    Sticks was so damn cool. That is the realistic version of Daredevil. Punching bad guys with heavy punches to knock them out seems realistic but not so much when you are facing 10 guys with machine guns.
    .

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    What you've said resonates so well with my own thoughts. However, I will add some additional things that have gone through my mind that I feel point to Matt/Daredevil being an INFJ.

    Here goes:

    Matt Murdock consistently puts the good of others above his own good, even to the point of not acknowledging his own feelings, a very INFJ thing to do.

    “This city needs me in that mask, Foggy,” Matt tells Foggy in episode ten. In the same episode he reveals that he became a vigilante after hearing a little girl being abused by her father. Matt wanted to help the child. His primary and initial motive in putting on the mask was compassion. He wanted to make a difference.

    Matt and Foggy forego a lucrative career to help Hell's Kitchen and it was Matt's idea, his humanitarian dream. He is driven to save people. We could say he has a bit of a martyr, messianic or savior complex. He is very much a humanitarian with a dream. He isn't as haphazard as he seems. He planned what he would do while in college and then he followed the plan. He worked hard and earned top grades, also a very INFJ-like thing to do.

    He has a charming smile that warms his whole face and makes him seem somehow vulnerable, same thing when he cries. He's cute, but not because of the way he looks, but because he's got enough Fe to put people at ease, but he's also quick to call people on their BS. He gives off a certain vulnerability and goodness vibe that makes Claire want to help him. He is in constant conflict with his anger (maybe he's a 9w8? Haha.)

    He fights for those who can't fight for themselves. He wants to do the right thing, what's best for the under-privileged of Hell's Kitchen, and he battles guilt when he feels he has come up short. He also is a spiritual man and seeks guidance from his faith.

    Also, in the scene where he is presenting a case and wins, I think his entire approach is a combo of Ni-Fe-Ti....he reads the jury, establishes the facts and presents them in undeniable terms.
    I do agree with you on many points here, Ene.

    Indeed, Matt seems more in touch with people around him than with his own self. When he looks inside of himself for reflection and contemplation, he does not come in touch with his feeling side as much as with his ideas of life in general. This is particularly evident in his dialogue with the priest. He cares a lot about people, which is shown throughout the episodes, especially in the one about Stick. He is very much nurturing and feels responsible for not only those he loves but also those in whim he finds heart (unlike with the irrelevant psychopaths such as the Russian mobs). This is what makes one of his prime motivators as well as one of his most obvious weaknesses. As an example, Matt suddenly gave in to the rush and was certain he would kill Fisk. His rage took over him and served him to Fisk's hands. This was a horrible mistake he had to learn in order to rise again.

    Matt is also more driven to help society not because this merely makes him or others feel good about it, but because it coincides with his grand vision of how things should be. If you look at this, both him and Fisk are very much alike when it comes to them speaking of their ideals. They are almost obsessive about their worldviews, which is extremely common among Ni-doms. However, their visions target not systems, but people at large. Essentially, they take people not as individuals or communes but a concept at which they could exercise their plans. All those close to them are only immediate instants of the people in general. Even Vanessa is a glimpse of hope in Fisk's reassurance that the city needs to be revived in a cleaner, more beautiful form (just as Vanessa is perceived by him).

    Interestingly, Matt appears rather disillusioned by law on numerous occasions. He gradually becomes a law breaker and he does see a value in it. Unlike with other, more upbeat superheroes such as Spider-Man, Daredevil, as Foggy nicely put in the same episode, is the judge, the jury and the executor, all in one. The value Matt sees in his actions is what the law lacks, in his opinion. The law runs counter to absolute truth and justice. For him, law is either a surfacing layer or an obstacle to overcome. He is far more captivated by the idea of justice, the true justice, and not the one caged in bureaucratic BS. The law plays a great role behind Matt's motivation to wear the mask. It is the dissatisfaction with the reality as it is. For Matt, the mask is the path to the reality as it should be.

    You nicely noted about his spirituality, as Matt has a lot of it. He still believes in God but he is at this point unsure. He is not lost, but he does have doubts. It is another reason why he saw the symbol of justice in his becoming Daredevil. It is also why he decided the image of the devil is to become the guide of salvation. Many people face times when they lose their hope and faith in the intangible. But, for people such as INFJ (and ENFP), this is a far greater struggle that place them at the doubt with their own selves. By losing faith, they also can lose the belief in their themselves. This process is rather common and sometimes necessary in order to develop. It is not unusual that, by stepping past this gap, INFJs come out even ten times wiser and unsurprisingly ten times more mystical they have ever been.
    Likes Ene liked this post

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ObnoXious View Post
    I do agree with you on many points here, Ene.

    Indeed, Matt seems more in touch with people around him than with his own self. When he looks inside of himself for reflection and contemplation, he does not come in touch with his feeling side as much as with his ideas of life in general. This is particularly evident in his dialogue with the priest. He cares a lot about people, which is shown throughout the episodes, especially in the one about Stick. He is very much nurturing and feels responsible for not only those he loves but also those in whim he finds heart (unlike with the irrelevant psychopaths such as the Russian mobs). This is what makes one of his prime motivators as well as one of his most obvious weaknesses. As an example, Matt suddenly gave in to the rush and was certain he would kill Fisk. His rage took over him and served him to Fisk's hands. This was a horrible mistake he had to learn in order to rise again.

    Matt is also more driven to help society not because this merely makes him or others feel good about it, but because it coincides with his grand vision of how things should be. If you look at this, both him and Fisk are very much alike when it comes to them speaking of their ideals. They are almost obsessive about their worldviews, which is extremely common among Ni-doms. However, their visions target not systems, but people at large. Essentially, they take people not as individuals or communes but a concept at which they could exercise their plans. All those close to them are only immediate instants of the people in general. Even Vanessa is a glimpse of hope in Fisk's reassurance that the city needs to be revived in a cleaner, more beautiful form (just as Vanessa is perceived by him).

    Interestingly, Matt appears rather disillusioned by law on numerous occasions. He gradually becomes a law breaker and he does see a value in it. Unlike with other, more upbeat superheroes such as Spider-Man, Daredevil, as Foggy nicely put in the same episode, is the judge, the jury and the executor, all in one. The value Matt sees in his actions is what the law lacks, in his opinion. The law runs counter to absolute truth and justice. For him, law is either a surfacing layer or an obstacle to overcome. He is far more captivated by the idea of justice, the true justice, and not the one caged in bureaucratic BS. The law plays a great role behind Matt's motivation to wear the mask. It is the dissatisfaction with the reality as it is. For Matt, the mask is the path to the reality as it should be.

    You nicely noted about his spirituality, as Matt has a lot of it. He still believes in God but he is at this point unsure. He is not lost, but he does have doubts. It is another reason why he saw the symbol of justice in his becoming Daredevil. It is also why he decided the image of the devil is to become the guide of salvation. Many people face times when they lose their hope and faith in the intangible. But, for people such as INFJ (and ENFP), this is a far greater struggle that place them at the doubt with their own selves. By losing faith, they also can lose the belief in their themselves. This process is rather common and sometimes necessary in order to develop. It is not unusual that, by stepping past this gap, INFJs come out even ten times wiser and unsurprisingly ten times more mystical they have ever been.
    Man, you are GOOD. haha... You have totally broken his character down. On a personal note, I really love Matt Murdock's [or rather Cox's portrayal of] character on this show. I love how he is more complex and deeper than even his close friends realize.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Man, you are GOOD. haha... You have totally broken his character down. On a personal note, I really love Matt Murdock's [or rather Cox's portrayal of] character on this show. I love how he is more complex and deeper than even his close friends realize.
    Thank you, though much credit should go to the creators of the show and the depth of their work on the characters' development. I pretty much enjoyed every aspect of the show except for Karen and female characters in general. I this this is one of few major flaws of the show. For the rest, I would say it is one of the very few shows that ever got me to watch the entire season.
    Likes Ene liked this post

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