Hitler Analysis

[Magic Poriferan]

Hitler is not the problem here, nor is his type, a Hitler is powerless without pawns, or in this specific case, without Nazis.

Off the top of my head, I would not think Hitler to be a P, we just don't care enough to rally troops, and probably would prefer not to "lead".

And um, I also don't think Hitler was a user of Fi, maybe some lunatic Fi user could be a leader of a small cult, but a lunatic leader of a huge party must be able to access his Fe quite evilly and readily.

I think he was a cunning person, and I think he catered to people's inherent insecurities, I also think he *knew* what he was doing, i.e. that he was aware of his powers of manipulation.

I dunno, I can only speak from an ENFP/INFP perspective, but as a type(s), we COULD NEVER BE HITLERS, or even Hitler-esque. We care too much about being sincere and authentic, and about others being sincere and authentic too.

Power, I don't think as a type (NFP), that we care too much for it. We just want individual freedom, and personal peace, I think.

I think most of my analysis of Hitler already in some way addressed much of what you're saying.

What has become clear to me is that the major problem in typing him is that people can't seem to decide how much of what went on in the Third Reich is because of Hitler, or his subordinates. Not knowing which is which severely alters the perception of his type.

*gags*

*vomits bile*

BULL SHIT!!!!

You were merely a passing example for my point about Hitler. The subject is Hitler's type. I'm afraid that in dealing with Hitler, and the MBTI, it's pretty much impossible to do anything but theorize. So, I'm sticky to analysis of the theory. That one little moment of yours came as a handy case in point.

I'm not expecting you to believe, because you are clearly very defensive. I'm merely saying that you're supposed to believe because it's true. Know one can know my intent better than me, it's just up to you to believe me.

 

[Sunshine]

Hitler's obsession and dedication could very much be a product of Fi. He's burrying himself under his own standards of merit.

A notice how, while he's always working, he makes decisions quick and impatiently. Is that an indication that he really knows what he's talking about, or is it just a manifestation of his Fi + Ne making him hasty in seeing what he wants to see.

Also, vastly imposed moral values could definitely come from the combination. Fi are good/bad values that are derived from ones personal ideals, that don't necessarily pay heed to anyone elses. Ne of course often drives people to be very expansive, and often rather presumptuous. They fancy themselve the only ones that can see the big picture, see the future, see all the possibilities. So, putting the two together, we have a classic case of someone that thinks they know what the better course is for the people than the people do themselves.

Hey... Captain Chick is an ENFP. Did you see her talking about how she knew which moral values were objectively real, and most people didn't?

If you want more superficial or archetypical similarities to an ENFP(especially an unhealthy one) then consider some of these things:

He was theatrical and flamboyant in manner, and a huge attention whore.
Until his experiences with war, Hitler hadn't seriously considered taking political office. He was mostly interested in being a great painter or architect.
He was a sexual deviant, and many have suspected that he also became a drug addict later in life.
He was a big idea kind of guy(surprise) who took a mostly romantic view of things.

That could definitely pass for unhealthy ENFP. Now, I personally just want to focus more on the possible implications of the functions, but I provided that to show you that Hitler doesn't even stand far from many ENFP cliches.

I'm well aware that Hitler doesn't represent normal behavior, but he has to have some kind of type, because he can't not use cognitive functions. In the Dark Knight thread, I argued that it was perhaps too hard to figure out the Joker's type. Hitler, though, is a real person with a life history, and a lot of documentation. We have enough to work with, I think.

Well yeah of course he has a type.
What I meant was he's not a good example of much except for a really extreme case...cases that hardly ever happen and he shouldn't be used as an example of a type because the chances of someone ever going as far as he did are very low.

 

[Sunshine]

Really guys, I think you should stop while you're ahead.

It doesn't matter what type he is.

 

[entropie]

Tell that your kids

 

[Magic Poriferan]

He's not an example of a type in good or common form, and I don't want him to be seen as a representative of one. I'm not trying to make him one.

Never the less, as we agreed, he has a type. and I think it's interesting to know what it is. My exchange with Little Linguist(who is ENFP by the way) was going just fine.

 

[Sunshine]

Well ok.

Suit yourself.

ETA: That bit about him being used as an example of a type was a response to what people did on the other forum. They used him to demonstrate what people with his type were like but I didn't think you were going to do that.

 

[Eric B]

I had heard that Jung said he couldn't be typed, because he was so screwed up inside, or something like that.
Otherwise, I would think ENTJ ("Fieldmarshall"-In Charge/Rational). Someone like that seemed to be more logic (though twisted) driven than any "feeling" concerns. An inferior Fi would give him enough of the strong beliefs to impose on the world, becoming "convinced that their values are are right for everyone" (Berens).
Then, others also say he is E6, but I would think it would be 8.

 

[entropie]

ETA: That bit about him being used as an example of a type was a response to what people did on the other forum. They used him to demonstrate what people with his type were like but I didn't think you were going to do that.

I guess by that time, I would dismantle my MBTI membership. Dismantle isnt the right word is it ? It is discard, yeah that sounds cool, dont know what it means though xD

@sunshine I appreciate your thoughts on this topic, as I do with anyone else's. For you it is a topic you can post into or dont, just how you like.

For me it is to some extent personal, because I have to stand blame for things I have never even experienced. I was getting onto this topic so seriously, because I do not want it EVER to happen again.

And concerning that "Would you have been a Nazi test" from okCupid. I guess there needs to be a result added, something like "you would have been the one, who would've dedicated his life to kill that bitching maniac".

 

[Mondo]

I don't think being a Feeler makes sense for Hitler.. I just don't.

 

[Carebear]

I started to get intrested in the idea of Hitler being a F-Type. Bismarck the first Reichskanzler in the 1st World War was a T, he quit the war, when it was going nowhere, to not face total destruction. Hitler didn't.

Bismarck wasn't Reichskanzler in WW1. He died in 1898. The German Revolution ended the war, not Bismarck. The people threw Kaiser Wilhelm on 9. Nov and asked for an armstice two days later. Then the German people was punished severely by Versailles treaty, which undermined the new democracy and ultimately paved the way for a new strong leader.

I don't think being a Feeler makes sense for Hitler.. I just don't.

I agree. He strikes me more as a damaged, very emotional T who tried to disregard feelings because he didn't want to/know how to deal with them. T/F isn't a measure of how emotional a person is, but a reflection of how much a person thinks their own and other people's feelings should influence decisions. Osama on the other hand is a more likely NF in my opinion (just to show that this isn't an attempt to "clear" the NFs).

 

[Magic Poriferan]

My assertion about Hitler being an F comes back to his extraordinary emphasis on his ideas of good and bad, and relatively small amount of time actually spent on the Thinking aspect of things.

Compare to the meticulously cautious Stalin, who was T, no bones about it. He might have been an S, even. Anyone want to find a profile of Stalin?

Also there's the fact that Hitler was a bitter romantic. Stalin was more like a bloodless cynic.

Also, it's very odd. It seems to me that a lot of what people take for a sign of Hitler's "Thinking" is something that strikes me as a product of Intuition, which isn't even a judging function.

 

[Carebear]

My assertion about Hitler being an F comes back to his extraordinary emphasis on his ideas of good and bad, and relatively small amount of time actually spent on the Thinking aspect of things.

Hm... I've met a lot of STs who think in terms of good and bad as well. Often as a boolean. Granted, many Fs think in terms of good and bad as well (but NFs in shades of good and bad rather than true/false.)

So I guess what I'm saying is doesn't have to say much about Hitler, especially since the good/bad way of thinking is a very simple concept, well designed to get the support of the masses. ("We're good, they're bad." Much easier and more pleasing world view to accept than "We have our strengths and flaws, so do they.")

What you're saying about the small amount of time spent on the Thinking aspect of things however... I'll have to think a bit on that (and dig out Mein Kampf again, didn't really consider it when I first read it), but if it turns out that it's accurate, I'm inclined to agree F is more likely than T.

Compare to the meticulously cautious Stalin, who was T, no bones about it. He might have been an S, even. Anyone want to find a profile of Stalin?

I've always pegged him as INTJ, but opportunistic is probably a better description than visionary, so I'm starting to think I might have been wrong. I'd love to read a profile.

Also there's the fact that Hitler was a bitter romantic. Stalin was more like a bloodless cynic.

True. There's no doubt Stalin (the man of steel) was way more T than Hitler, but 1: Hitler could still be T and 2: The bitter romantic could be a calculated act. An ENTP or an ESTP can often rally the masses with emotional manipulation way better than an INFx can.

Also, it's very odd. It seems to me that a lot of what people take for a sign of Hitler's "Thinking" is something that strikes me as a product of Intuition, which isn't even a judging function.

The lack of "Thinking" is your strongest argument imo. I haven't really considered it enough from that angle. As mentioned: If I find the same, I'm inclined to change my position. Ts tend to have a certain kind of consistency in thoughts and writing (even when applying to emotions). Especially Ts with Ti, but also many Te.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I'm afraid I've talked about this too much today for me to go on my usual point by point response, but... I'm very convinced that his values are not show. They are personal to him. He believed a lot of what he said, and wanted to believe a lot of the rest, even though he was in self-conflict.

That's probably it for today/tonight.

 

[Little Linguist]

Heavens help us - what happened here?!

First, to Captain Chick and all other NFs who are interested and/or posted:

We did not mean it mean when we said that Hitler was an NF. Heck, I am an NF - but we are talking about NFs who "went wrong." You guys are all NFs who "went right" - so we aren't talking about NFs in general, but just those who went to the "dark side." We love you guys and the forum wouldn't be the same without you.

I know it is hard to think of an NF in those terms. I mean, when we see NF we think of all the NFs who developed "positively." We think about Ghandi and Princess Di; we think of Mary and Jesus; we think of Nelson Mandela and JFK; we think of all those cute NF characters that make us laugh and smile and feel good. People who dream of a better world and want to make life better. Hell, we think of the NFs on this forum, most of whom are happy, peaceful and kind/considerate.

Hitler an NF?! No way - when we think of Hitler we think of some bizarre combination of Stewie Griffin, Voldemort and Terminator. We think of some inane, infeasible total evil; brilliant but totally messed up. And since most people associate this kind of behavior with NTs (um, don't ask me why - I think it is TOTALLY unfair), they think Hitler must be an NT.

Also, most historical information we have about Hitler is totally biased in two ways:

a) Most of the info we have on him come from his speeches, in which (I believe) he put on another "hat" in public. Sure, here he can come across as an ENTJ almost, or even an ENFP (Don't hate me CC). But this was a facade, imo.

b) Most historical information is biased in some way. I mean even if you get the most NT, the most objective, the most pedantic person to record history, not everyone can record everything, which means (by default) a filter must be used. Someone has to decide what is important and what isn't. I mean, we do not record every time Hitler went to the restroom or eat a plate of lasagne.

Couple that truth with the fact that most historians are TOTALLY biased, and you have a mixture of disaster. Don't think history is biased - it is written by SJs or NTs? Take another look.

Stalin was an evil bastid too. Take a look - the guy totally eliminated whole groups of people. Some estimates report that he killed up to 60 MILLION of the peasant farmers, to whom he referred to as "Kulaks." Take a look at this quote from Wikipedia:

...And at roughly the same time, forced rapid industrialization of the largely rural country and collective farming by confiscating the lands of farmers. He derogatorily referred to farmers who refused his reforms as "kulaks", a class of rich peasant which had in actual fact been wiped out by World War One; millions were killed, exiled to Siberia, or died of starvation after their land, homes, meager possessions, and ability to earn an existence from the land were taken to fulfill Stalin's vision of massive "factory farms"....At the end of 1930s, Stalin launched the Great Purge, a major campaign of political repression. During his continued repressions, millions of people who were a threat to the Soviet politics or suspected of being such a threat were executed or exiled to Gulag labor camps in remote areas of Siberia or Central Asia, where many more died of disease, malnutrition and exposure. A number of ethnic groups in Russia were forcibly resettled for political reasons. Stalin's rule, reinforced by a cult of personality, fought real and alleged opponents mainly through the security apparatus, such as the NKVD.

(Oops pressed the wrong button)

(Sound like someone we know?!)

This guy was even more ruthless than Hitler - well, okay, how do you quantify ruthlessness??? But he was just as bad. And he did this with his own people. Gahhhh! But no one ever talks about this guy like they talked about Hitler. WHY?! Because he was our ally against Fascism, that's why. Take a look at poor George Orwell - when he wanted to publish his political satire Animal Farm (which criticises the development of the Russian revolution under Stalinist rule) no one (NO ONE) wanted to publish it in London in 1945 until AFTER the war was over. Dude, how unfair is that?!

What I'm saying is that historical sources are hardly EVER objective. They never portray the whole picture. Since we rarely see Hitler outside the context of his speeches, we have to rely on eyewitness accounts, and they are often afraid to open up and talk. So we have to rely on a very few first-hand accounts, like that of Junge or Speer. So an accurate portrayal is almost impossible.

That being said, I think that after observing both the first-hand accounts, in addition to some very critical analyses of books, films, etc. one can only argue that this guy was an NF gone terribly wrong. Take a look at this version of weaknesses:

Negotiator
INFJs as Negotiators


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Strengths
Strengths of INFJs

Entranced by ideas - can be innovative in finding solutions. (check)
Not swayed by popular notions of what is "right." Will find own way. (check)
Visionary about the future. (cehck)
Committed to own ideals of what outcome ought to be. (check)
Determined to implement their views. (definitely big check)
Can persuade spouse to cooperate with their vision and will be effective in own behalf as negotiator. (well, maybe not - she served another function, but considering he considered his spouse to be the German VOLK - BIG HUGE ASS CHECK)

Weaknesses
Weaknesses of INFJ's as negotiators

Under stress they may lose sequence, become disordered, get their priorities confused. (check)
Same determination and single-mindedness which is their strength can be a weakness if they fail to consider opponent's views or possibilities of other options. (biggggg check)
See own idea as perfect, may miss risk that idea is faulty. May miss sound practical aspects of opponent's ideas. (definitely)
If spouse's lawyer intervenes,they can become frustrated and not negotiate well. (umm...)
Can miss the give and take needed in negotiations. (YUP)
Can get discouraged if their idea or approach is negated. (definitely)
Can react by giving up and going to trial (which may not go any better for them). (okay, war, but same idea)
They like harmony and if emotional conflict gets too high, may opt out of negotiations. (yup, Blitzkrieg sounds more like it).
Tendency to hold back part of themselves (this is proven through many eyewitnesses)
Not good with money or practical day-to-day life necessities (he was practical in some ways, but not others)
Extreme dislike of conflict and criticism (oh hellz yeah)
Have very high expectations for themselves and others (both a strength and weakness) (DEFINITELY)
Have difficulty leaving a bad relationship (don't know about all that, but look at Geli Raubl).

How others see the INFJ as a Negotiator

Manipulative. (check)
Too nice and trusting. (okay, maybe not here, but no one is 100% INFJ)
Not very flexible. (yup)
Won't consider other options, ideas. (definitely)
Won't listen to other's ideas. (hell yeah)

Traits of INFJ
Intuitively understand people and situations (OH YEAH)
Idealistic (DEFINITELY)
Highly principled (in his own definition, yes)
Complex and deep (no question there)
Natural leaders (totally)
Sensitive and compassionate towards people (as long as you fit in the definition of right people, yes)
Service-oriented (sure!)
Future-oriented (no question there)
Value deep, authentic relationships (hard to say)
Reserved about expressing their true selves (definitely)
Dislike dealing with details unless they enhance or promote their vision (right)
Constantly seeking meaning and purpose in everything (yes)
Creative and visionary (without a doubt)
Intense and tightly-wound (YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS)
Can work logically and rationally - use their intuition to understand the goal and work backwards towards it (He did this until 42)

So what we are talking about here is not a GOOD INFJ - for heaven's sake, but an INFJ who has developed into a total - well, what word can we use???

The problem with NFs is the following: When we are good, we are almost too good for words. But when we turn bad, we are worse than any NT, SJ, or SP. When we turn bad, we turn BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! I mean bad!!! (Did I mention, bad?!) In this way, I have to agree with BlueWing (Holy crap, did I just say I agree with BW?!?!?!?!! Write it down in the history books!!!) When NF goes awry, it totally does beyond the point of no return. 99% of us are cool, kind, compassionate, sweet, affectionate, passionate, and just all around GREAT. 1% of us are totally F-ed up!!!!!!!

 

[Valiant]

I'd have to agree with Entropie, and probably more out there, Hitler looks like an ENTP or ENTJ to me. An unhealthy one, mind you. But still, I recognize a lot of myself in him. Sad to say it, cause I really don't like that guy He probably wasn't a Perciever though, because he had such strict routines.

Sacre bleu!

 

[Little Linguist]

I'd have to agree with Entropie, and probably more out there, Hitler looks like an ENTP or ENTJ to me. An unhealthy one, mind you. But still, I recognize a lot of myself in him. Sad to say it, cause I really don't like that guy He probably wasn't a Perciever though, because he had such strict routines.

Sacre bleu!

When he spoke, I totally agree that he wore an ENTJ hat. Also when he met with his generals, perhaps - I think he had to in order to gain respect and maintain his authority. However, I still maintain that this was an INFJ at heart. Totally respect your opinion though.

By the way, I totally agree with your assessment that he was not a P.

 

[sleepless]

Hey, did the discussion die here? I thought you were gonna continue your argument about whether he was Fe or not (he was not!! gaah)... not sure if I actually care to do any more arguing myself, though. But, Little Linguist, I would also check most things on that checklist, except the Fe stuff (and that's also where you seem least convinced yourself), because he wasn't Fe... evil INFJs make good sect leaders, that's how far they go, but starting a World War? Naa. It just isn't their style.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Oh, I'm sorry. I was meaning to respond to her last elaboration, but I forgot. I mighgt get around to it, but I'm not promising. Things have been staggard for me as of late.

 

[entropie]

Just wanted to give this one for the best xD. Have not found one with an english translation though, sry.

It is about the reason, why he started the war. It mainly deals with the fact that Hitler has had only one testicle and was searching for the other xD:

YouTube - Hitler hatte nur ein Ei

 

[Aerithria]

Just a random thought. For the people who say that he's too inhumane to be an NF, consider it from a different perspective. Looking back on it now, yeah, of course he's the most inhumane bastard ever to cross the planet. However, he saw a country that was in serious need of some form of leadership and believed that he knew a way to fix things. xNTJs always get the credit when some asshole steps up and says "I'm going to smite you all", but he stepped up and said "I'm going to save us all". I'm not saying that he wasn't evil, but he did have the welfare of his country in mind when he took the position.

Actually, after all that rambling, I'm starting to see how INFJ could fit. An unhealthy desire to fix everything coupled with a twisted set of principles telling him that he's doing right. Hm. I don't know. Most likely an INF, at any rate.