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Thread: Burn Notice

  1. #31
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    None of which addresses the fact that Michael has a tremendous amount of foresight (higher Ni), excellent management and organization skills (Te), and seems unconcerned with intricacies, deduction and little nuggets of reasoning (no Ti). Any type can easily behave like another type (I act nothing like a typical ENFP, but I'm Ne Fi Te Si), and just citing type descriptions is a lazy and pedestrian way to argue type theory.

    The last paragraph doesn't describe Michael at all, in any case. Out of him, Fiona and Sam, he's the one who always takes a step back and plans what comes next. He's a man of action yes, but he never goes in unprepared. Fiona (ISTP) on the other hand, always wants to immediately dive into the fray.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    None of which addresses the fact that Michael has a tremendous amount of foresight (higher Ni), excellent management and organization skills (Te), and seems unconcerned with intricacies, deduction and little nuggets of reasoning (no Ti). Any type can easily behave like another type (I act nothing like a typical ENFP, but I'm Ne Fi Te Si), and just citing type descriptions is a lazy and pedestrian way to argue type theory.

    The last paragraph doesn't describe Michael at all, in any case. Out of him, Fiona and Sam, he's the one who always takes a step back and plans what comes next. He's a man of action yes, but he never goes in unprepared. Fiona (ISTP) on the other hand, always wants to immediately dive into the fray.
    What foresight? He's not a long-range strategic planner at all, he's a tactical thinker who observes the field of battle and makes a plan that he often has to change in the heat of the moment.

    Pure ISTP.

    Here's the last paragraph again:

    ISTPs like and need to spend time alone, because this is when they can sort things out in their minds most clearly. They absorb large quantities of impersonal facts from the external world, and sort through those facts, making judgments, when they are alone. ISTPs are action-oriented people. They like to be up and about, doing things. They are not people to sit behind a desk all day and do long-range planning. Adaptable and spontaneous, they respond to what is immediately before them. They usually have strong technical skills, and can be effective technical leaders. They focus on details and practical things. They have an excellent sense of expediency and grasp of the details which enables them to make quick, effective decisions.
    He likes to be alone, going over intel and making plans from the conclusions he draws. And what plans are those? They usually are of him going out and doing something himself, often after being yelled at by Sam and Fiona to not do it all himself. He doesn't sit back and manage others, he does things himself.

    Things often go wrong and he's consistently able to improvise something (like your biker example - you call that Ni? lol) and get out of the jam.

    He focuses on details and practical things like building bombs out of smoke alarms.

  3. #33
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    you're making a mistake comparing Michael to Fiona there... Fiona isn't an ISTP... ISTPs tend to think before acting (like all introverts )

    plus, isn't it more likely that Michael's tertiary is well developed, he is older... and Ti combined with Fe can work quite well with managing and organizing things as well...
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  4. #34
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    Every argument I've read against Michael being ISTP describes ISTP's perfectly. This is hilarious. Mike's ISTP. Someone please argue against me about the nature of ISTP's. haha

    Other than that I'd say Sam is ESTP.
    I don't now about Fiona... possibly ISFP

    I don't care about the other characters.

  5. #35
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    (I've been watching this show tons recently so had to rekindle this thread.)

    Wow I'm ridiculously ashamed that I ever thought Michael was anything but ISTP.

    For all those making N arguments, when have you heard him say anything abstract? Seriously, I can't think of one thing. How could he be an N then?

    Foresight does not make you an N. A PREFERENCE for abstract thinking makes you an N. He clearly has a preference for concrete thinking -- it's not even close to close to arguable.

  6. #36
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    (I've been watching this show tons recently so had to rekindle this thread.)

    Wow I'm ridiculously ashamed that I ever thought Michael was anything but ISTP.

    For all those making N arguments, when have you heard him say anything abstract? Seriously, I can't think of one thing. How could he be an N then?

    Foresight does not make you an N. A PREFERENCE for abstract thinking makes you an N. He clearly has a preference for concrete thinking -- it's not even close to close to arguable.
    You fail for using letter analysis. Foresight is the very definition of Ni, which Michael uses very often.

    Ni users in fact can sound distinctly concrete (ENTJs and ENFJs especially), because they're focused on a fixed image of the future which seems concrete to them, and their preference is to organize the outside world on basis of that image. They're strategists, not theorists. NPs are more spacey and "what-if"-y. It's one of the reasons I believe a lot of supposed SJs are actually NJ.

    I'm thinking ISTP for him might be right, though, which doesn't conflict with what I just said. ISTPs use Ni aplenty.
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  7. #37
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    You fail for using letter analysis. Foresight is the very definition of Ni, which Michael uses very often.

    I'm thinking ISTP for him might be right, though, which doesn't conflict with what I just said. ISTPs use Ni aplenty.
    No it isn't the definition.

    I agree that foresight is an instance of an N function. Foresight is not S.

    But there's a huge difference between ability and preference. So Michael uses N. Duh. So does every single person. So Michael is smart. Sure. He's proficient with Intuition.

    He just obviously doesn't prefer it to Sensing.


    I could make the exact opposite argument with the same reasoning. Michael is SOOOOO good at thinking through details. He MUST be S!!!! OMG you're stupid for thinking he's N!

    This is where typology fails. When people use it to describe ability and forget that it's a descriptive system purely about PREFERENCE.


    P.S. I'm not only thinking letter by letter. I'm thinking functional analysis as well. Ti/Se seems descriptively consistent with his behavior. Seems like a better descriptor to me than Ni/Te.

    You're just oversimplifying...you think that if you can use an N function proficiently you must be N. And yet you don't think if you can use S proficiently you must be S. Why? You think Ns just have more mental capacity overall, so they can just cover both bases? How closed-minded.

  8. #38
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This is where typology fails. When people use it to describe ability and forget that it's a descriptive system purely about PREFERENCE.
    A preference for foresight is a preference for Ni. It is indeed abstract, but as I demonstrated in my last post (as edited) it may not seem so. Captain Aubrey (Master and Commander, ENTJ) doesn't seem abstract at all, for example, but he clearly has a preference for prediction (Ni) over reliance on experience (Si). The last scene of the movie is proof -- his pep talk to his men consisted of quite accurately predicting what the Acheron would do when it saw them.

    I can make the distinction.

    I'm not only thinking letter by letter. I'm thinking functional analysis as well. Ti/Se seems descriptively consistent with his behavior. Seems like a better descriptor to me than Ni/Te.
    I think in terms of all four functions, not just the first two. Michael is clearly farsighted and clearly has a good eye for detail and a knack for improvisation -- which means he is an Ni/Se type. The big question is whether he prefers Te or Ti. If Ti, then he's ISTP. If Te, then he's INTJ.

    As for which ine he prefers more, to me he seemed to prefer them more or less equally, which I deduced to mean that the lower function was Se rather than Ni -- given that his line of work appears far more likely to force the development of Se than it is to force the development of Ni.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    You fail for using letter analysis. Foresight is the very definition of Ni, which Michael uses very often.

    I'm thinking ISTP for him might be right, though, which doesn't conflict with what I just said. ISTPs use Ni aplenty.

    I think a lot of the disagreements here are based on letter analysis vs. cognitive function analysis. I'm going to try and drop the letter analysis altogether until the end, but I'll try to explain what I believe to be his first four most used cognitive functions. The ones I will delineate, I also do believe, are very very close together. These unusual traits in cognitive function is what makes Michael Westen such a unique and intriguing character for me. And I'll focus on Michael as he's the only guy I really care about in this TV show. Though I'd agree with those who said Sam Axe is ESTP.

    1. Ne function - From Cognitive Processes.com: "This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand."

    I think everyone can agree this fits Michael pretty well.

    2. Ni function - From Cognitive Processes.com: "The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future."

    I don't think there's any argument here either.

    3. Se function - I think this is the heart of what's being debated here. There is no doubt in my mind that he is exceptional at seeing the details. Any good soldier absolutely MUST have a strong Se function. So he takes all the details he encounters and uses his Ni function in conjunction with his Ti function to get behind those details and see the truth of a situation.

    4. Ti function - Sometimes people think, generally, if you don't care about the feelings of others, you are a Te. It makes sense, but in my opinion, the extraverted function is the way we process what's outside of us, and the intraverted function is how we deal with what we have processed outside of ourselves through our extraverted function. In that sense, it's very clear to me that he handles what he sees on the outside with a strong rational perspective.

    Also, another note: To me, the fact that he does want to help people to no real benefit of his own suggests at the very least that the Te function is NOT a part of his primary cognitive functions.

    So he's got Ne/Se in extraverted functions and Ni/Ti in introverted functions. Couldn't tell you what type that would be, but I'm pretty sure it's in line with what everyone in this thread has been throwing out.

  10. #40
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    I don't see much Ne coming out of Michael at all. Do you ever see him brainstorming seemingly random possibilities? He's an Se and Ni type -- and I think everyone here agrees on that. The real argument is on whether he's a Ti versus Te type.

    The idea that a good soldier must have Se is incorrect, though. Si abilities (concretely, focusing on details in front of you to check whether they match previous experience) are just as good -- if not better. The vast majority of soldiers are Si types, and many sportsmen are as well.
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