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  1. #81
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emotionalogic View Post
    Elsa makes the choice to leave in the face of social disapproval. Nobody forces her to do it. A te user would have pointed out that the disapproval of her subjects didn't really matter on account of her being queen and them not, and proceeded to rule well enough that they'd forget about it. A ti user would have argued that the ice powers would not hinder her ability to rule, and might actually help, if she used them to defend the kingdom. A fi user might have left, but would never have become ashamed of the powers before hand (self acceptance even if they're different is kind of their thing, you know?). So we see that, in her internalizing other people's negative emotional judgments, and making choices that show an inability to cope with social disapproval, Elsa displays fe. As for the idea that she's fi because she "expresses what she thinks of her powers and how she feels about having to suppress them": fe users have feelings too, and are more want to express them than fi users. A fi user would have expressed them much earlier, but Elsa waits for external emotional stimulus I.E. the reveal and the disapproval that followed. She feels her emotions in tandem with others, not by herself (contrast that with Anna, who gets her big "this is how I feel" songs in the first few minutes of the movie, with no-one else providing emotional stimulus. It's all in her head.)
    At the begginning of the movie at what, age 13? No, it wasn't her choice. The mantra "Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know." was given by her parents as clearly shown while they hand her the gloves. She conformed to it, yes, and played her role really well for many years, but it took a visible toll on her.

    You see that as being Fe, I see that as Enneagram related. I don't think everything about a person, wether real or fictional, can be tied to personality type. This is related to her world view to me, which belongs to the Enneagram sytem, and not MBTI.

    To me what keeps me from ever being able to see Elsa as INFJ is what I've already stated before: no demonstration of using Ni. People talk a lot about her showing Fe and Se, but the only evidence for Ni I they bring up is her construction of the ice palace. But that doesn't determinate Ni at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by LittleV View Post
    I'd agree with this.

    Additionally - with most things - people would tend to see characteristics in which they would understand most and embody themselves. Many Fi-users may see Elsa's critical moment as something she was solely doing for herself - whereas I (and Fe-users) may see it as Elsa trying to make the best of a difficult situation, with the primary goal of making sure that others were safe. Elsa to Anna in the ice castle (Fe): "I'm just trying to protect you." Elsa sang, "The past is in the past!" as she threw her crown (Se)... even though Ni would continue to synthesize past events.
    Except you're quite wrong in your assumption about Ni users. I'm an INTJ and "I'm never going back/The past is in the past!" is one of my favorite lines in the song, which are the ones I most identify with. Ni users are all about the future, we have no use or interest in the past. We resolve things and move on, differently from Si users. They would dwelve in the past forever.

    To be honest several of so-called "INFJ traits" people see in her are to me, due to her Enneagram. But people aren't so keen on discussing that, which is weird due to the Ennegram going much deeper than MBTI ever could.

  2. #82
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Look Alive_Sunshine View Post
    Except you're quite wrong in your assumption about Ni users. I'm an INTJ and "I'm never going back/The past is in the past!" is one of my favorite lines in the song, which are the ones I most identify with. Ni users are all about the future, we have no use or interest in the past. We resolve things and move on, differently from Si users. They would dwelve in the past forever.

    To be honest several of so-called "INFJ traits" people see in her are to me, due to her Enneagram. But people aren't so keen on discussing that, which is weird due to the Ennegram going much deeper than MBTI ever could.
    You cannot synthesize without looking at past events. It isn't black and white/all or nothing. Ni looks to predict the future using accumulated information, past and present, to infer... with hypothetical focus on the future. It's a framework that constantly shifts and changes... like moving wheels continually seeing what fits in order to improve circumstances.

    How do you, as an INTJ, function without looking at progress? Cognitive science would disagree with the limitations you've presented. Also, you didn't seem to understand that I'd picked that line because it showed the dynamic between Ni and Se... the Ni bit was a caveat showing that the past isn't forgotten. I also like it, apparently.

    As younger kids may frequent these topics on the internet, please be responsible when posting... try to understand what people are saying/what you're saying and come with legitimate information.

    Again, this is a character... without much screen time as it is.

  3. #83
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleV View Post
    You cannot synthesize without looking at past events. It isn't black and white/all or nothing. Ni looks to predict the future using accumulated information, past and present, to infer... with hypothetical focus on the future. It's a framework that constantly shifts and changes... like moving wheels continually seeing what fits in order to improve circumstances.

    How do you, as an INTJ, function without looking at progress? Cognitive science would disagree with the limitations you've presented. Also, you didn't seem to understand that I'd picked that line because it showed the dynamic between Ni and Se... the Ni bit was a caveat showing that the past isn't forgotten. I also like it, apparently.

    As younger kids may frequent these topics on the internet, please be responsible when posting... try to understand what people are saying/what you're saying and come with legitimate information.

    Again, this is a character... without much screen time as it is.

    No matter how smooth you thought you were being in your phrasing, the "shade" is still transparent. I understand very well what people are saying and obviously what I wrote myself as I'm no imbecile. I perfectly understand why you've picked that line, I however disagree with your interpretation of it. I "function" as a human being using cognitive processes, which are subconcious, I don't go around thinking "Oh, this though is brought by Ni, that decision was made b my Fi", neither do I believe that every thought/feeling/action is down to type. As for "Cognitive science disagreeing" with my views, I fail to see how that closes a discussion. I guess it does if you're the type who readily believes and accepts information given to you, even when it's about a system that it's light years from becoming a science as is personality typing.

    As for asking me to be responible this is an open internet forum, not an university class. I'm not a professor or an authority in personality types, every user of this forum is in perfect liberty of posting their thoughts as unorhtodox or incorrect as they might be. And as for "legitimate information", I don't see how any of the claims I made in my past posts are not. I don't have to go on about notions that any person with an average knowledge of MBTI would have, it is assumed that they wouldn't be discussing a subject they haven't a grasp on.

    But as you've said, it's a screen character and people are free to interpret her as whatever they see fit.

  4. #84
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    I can say what I feel is responsible and emotionally fitting (for the most part - not everything is black and white), and at the end of the day, you will do as you choose. This won't be personal for me, and I won't put another thought to this afterward. I'd rather agree to disagree (with some things). Take care.

  5. #85
    Senior Member HBIC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleV View Post
    I can say what I feel is responsible and emotionally fitting (for the most part - not everything is black and white), and at the end of the day, you will do as you choose. This won't be personal for me, and I won't put another thought to this afterward. I'd rather agree to disagree (with some things). Take care.
    Same. It isn't wise to dedicate too much of your time and energy in such an irrelevant matter. Take care you too

  6. #86
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    Haha, alright. Sounds good.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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  8. #88
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    first of all, i want to congratulate disney for their first movie to be able to pass the bechdel test. it took you awhile, but you made it.



    now for her type:

    Quote Originally Posted by aalknj View Post
    I don't think Elsa is an ISFJ because I don't think most ISFJs would build an ice castle after running away. They would probably weep or break down. (think Cinderella, who is ISFJ). But the thing about INFJs is that when something bad happens, we don't just feel sad; we get angry, frustrated, and slightly rebellious, which is what happened to Elsa and caused her to build the castle. Which brings me to another reason- Elsa built an ICE CASTLE for goodness' sake! She used her creativity and strong spirit to create that gorgeous ice castle! Definitely a sign of intuition.
    she also grew up in a castle. you can't can't see an Si dom recreating their childhood home's main design principles? and how original exactly do you need to be to want to recreate your childhood home in the first place? the fact she was able to do that from ice rather then having to contract construction workers has more to do with the magical aspect of who she is then how she processes information or her personality - given the control she had over it from her childhood, it's also quite obvious that she didn't need to develop any extensive insight into how her magic works - it just did. she had control over ice, it was right there, literally an extension of her hands, making it the most obvious choice. you need to be an intuitve to use what's right in front of you? i doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by aalknj View Post
    When Elsa tried to hide her powers from everyone, she worried and stressed A LOT, which is something us INFJs do quite often!
    it's something both IxFJ's do often.

    Quote Originally Posted by aalknj View Post
    She always thought about the future, and was fearful and cautious.
    she was fearful and cautious of how people would react and of hurting anyone. while technically you can say that those are events that would happen in the future, to mark that as future-thinking takes quite a bit of a stretch - if you took the most extremes of ISFJ stereotypes you'd still have someone who want to have 2.4 kids and a house with a white fence In the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by aalknj View Post
    She expects a lot from herself, and tries to seem perfect in public.
    again a very common FJ trait in general (for all 4 xxFJ's)

    Quote Originally Posted by aalknj View Post
    She feels different, and has to learn to accept herself and find her place in society.
    ...she feels different because she can create ice form her finger tips, not because of perceiving the world in a drastically different way to most people around her.

    and:
    Quote Originally Posted by aalknj View Post
    She also tries to suppress these differences, which is what a lot of INFJs do.
    ...is not in itself a demonstration of Ni, but the natural IxFJ reaction to feeling different.

    and ofcourse:
    Quote Originally Posted by aalknj View Post
    But usually you can tell INFJs apart from ISFJs because INFJs are more independent, mysterious, deep, wise, mature, creative, and aren't as passive as ISFJs.
    no, to all of that. that is a pure 100% ego, 0% analysis, and the main reason people type themselves as Ns for all the wrong reasons. it's ironic how often the claims for N's depth, wisdom, maturity and creativity stem from the most transparent, shallow, false, immature and banal of beliefs. not a single one of those is an N or Ni trait.


    ....that's being said. i agree - there is one point that is applicable to making her more likely to be an INFJ then ISFJ:

    Quote Originally Posted by aalknj View Post
    Elsa is always very future-oriented, especially when she sings Let It Go and decides that her future and place will be to stay in the ice castle. She tells herself to forget the past. To me, this is very Ni and very un-Si.
    the ease at which she transitions from one perspective to another, completely abandoning all she valued in one second to support the next. building on perspective A to move to perspective B with barely any awareness that it was founded on a perspective which contradicts her current one a moment ago.

    so yes, she is probably a bit closer to INFJ then to ISFJ, not because the ways in which her perspective is deep or complex, but because the ways in which it's narrow sighted. in order to not see herself hurt anyone, she choose to make sure to not look back - literally to prevent herself from seen whether she hurts anyone (probably a few thousands of her own people dying out of starvation and hypothermia, her sister almost dying out of direct conflict, and the fact she appointed a royal ice delivery boy after, meaning they still send ice miners to mountain climb and work in dangerous environments to get the very substance she can fart out of her finger tips for no cost of human lives at all).

  9. #89
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #90
    Member Elaine's Avatar
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    IMO Elsa seems to be more Fi/ Te. There is a line in Let it go where she states there are no rules for her:

    "It's time to see what I can do
    To test the limits and break through
    No right, no wrong, no rules for me,
    I'm free!
    "

    I don' t think that' s a line a Fe - dom would casually say. Besides, I believe it isn' t society' s expectations that she was afraid not to live up to, as much as not fullfilling the expectations of her family and her duty as a queen( There is a short scene when she prepares to the coronation when she looks at her father' s portrai Judging from her expression, I would say that she was more worried about not putting a shame on her family or her father' s memory) . Also, from what she says she mostly thinks about the future( like worrying about Anna and forcefully sending her away when her sister found her) . I would say an INFP with nurtured Te who puts on a cold exterior.

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