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Thread: The Joker

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    I wouldn't say there are no arguments for the Joker being a F. The Joker's goal is to show people's immorality. That's how I interpret the movie and I think this is based more on internal values than logical reasoning.
    No, it wasn't. His goal was to show that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MORALITY. I repeat: "Their morals, their code... It's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble." It's not that he thought people are immoral and he disproved of it because he is moral himself and was driven mad by the rest of the world's immorality, it's that he is a psychopath who does not believe in morality at all and cannot possibly understand it because he does not have any feelings or values. Again, all he wanted to do was "watch the world burn" because he thought morality was phony and nothing more than an act - a "bad joke" - and that all people were like him deep down. The only difference was that he didn't make any pretensions of possessing morality. And that's all he thought it was - pretensions that would be quickly overcome by survival instinct and logic. Hence why he held an experiment to test this theory in a very ENTP-like way.

    And stop with this "internal values," "logical reasoning," "Fi," "Ti" crap. For one thing, you can't type functions based solely on observed behavior, especially not in a fictional character. That's backwards. And for another, The Joker used a lot of logical reasoning in, for instance, the speech he gave to Harvey Dent and his encounters with Batman. What he didn't do, and indeed did the exact opposite of, is imply that he had any internal values that he made decisions based on. Moreover, what he really desperately wanted most was for people to make sense, and their values, morals and feelings made no sense to him. And, again, MOST IMPORTANTLY, there is absolutely no way the Joker would score as an F on an MBTI test. Never.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    I wouldn't say there are no arguments for the Joker being a F. The Joker's goal is to show people's immorality. That's how I interpret the movie and I think this is based more on internal values than logical reasoning.
    The Joker's goal was to burn the world to the ground, he just wanted to provide bitter truth before he engulfed it in flames. The reason why he was so powerful in the movies is because of the fact that he knew that he was the villain and simply wanted to watch everything crumble to ruin, that was his only motive, and it is befitting of a sadist. He wasn't logical at all, nor did he have internal values, he acted simply on sadistic pleasure, and that is the selfishness for pleasure of a T rather than the selflessness for a cause of an F.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    The Joker's goal was to burn the world to the ground, he just wanted to provide bitter truth before he engulfed it in flames. The reason why he was so powerful in the movies is because of the fact that he knew that he was the villain and simply wanted to watch everything crumble to ruin, that was his only motive, and it is befitting of a sadist. He wasn't logical at all, nor did he have internal values, he acted simply on sadistic pleasure, and that is the selfishness for pleasure of a T rather than the selflessness for a cause of an F.
    Implying that Ts are selfish and Fs are selfless. Yes, The Joker is a T, but that's not why. (Though I agree that his wanting to "watch the world burn" and his emphasis on the truth is part of it.) And yes, he actually was pretty logical. Not that everything one does to be a T has to be based in foolproof logic. There's a lot of stupid Ts out there who make horribly illogical decisions. For example, George W. Bush, ESTJ.

  4. #84
    Almöhi Stephano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    No, it wasn't. His goal was to show that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MORALITY. I repeat: "Their morals, their code... It's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble."
    That's what I said... (mostly)
    You can interpret it this way - The Joker only wanted a logical proof that morality doesn't exist. But then again I think, what made this movie so great, if it's just a guy going mad because he doesn't understand morality?
    Also Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler wouldn't have scored F on a random bullshit test as well. F is about making personal decisions and T about logical decisions, that's the core thing.

    The Joker's goal was to burn the world to the ground, he just wanted to provide bitter truth before he engulfed it in flames. The reason why he was so powerful in the movies is because of the fact that he knew that he was the villain and simply wanted to watch everything crumble to ruin, that was his only motive, and it is befitting of a sadist. He wasn't logical at all, nor did he have internal values, he acted simply on sadistic pleasure, and that is the selfishness for pleasure of a T rather than the selflessness for a cause of an F.
    Yes, I could agree on that, but I guess there a several valid interpretations.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    That's what I said... (mostly)
    You can interpret it this way - The Joker only wanted a logical proof that morality doesn't exist. But then again I think, what made this movie so great, if it's just a guy going mad because he doesn't understand morality?
    Also Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler wouldn't have scored F on a random bullshit test as well. F is about making personal decisions and T about logical decisions, that's the core thing.
    Random bullshit test? Well shit, I thought that the Meyers Briggs Type Indicator was all about a Type Indicator. And yes, Hitler absolutely would have scored as an F. He even fits the stereotypes: Artistic, charismatic, kind to those close to him, idealistic, subjective, passionate. He would probably check almost every box for the F. Goebbels and Himmler may well have actually been Ts, I'm not sure, but that's not the point.

    And that's not really what The Dark Knight is about. The Joker raises a lot of good points and a lot of profound questions. Though his methods were clearly extreme, there is a case to be made that he was actually right from a philosophical perspective, at least in part. What I'm confused about is why you think the fact that The Joker is a T affects the quality of the movie? If he was an F, and it was just another case of "good vs. evil, opposing values, clashing causes" blah blah blah Hollywood BS, it wouldn't be half as interesting. The Joker's not "going mad." He is mad. (Or arguably, more sane than the rest of us - "ahead of the curve.") He doesn't fail to understand morality. He is convinced it is an illusion, and wants to prove it by setting the world on fire and seeing how the "civilized people" react. That's a pretty interesting character and storyline to me.

    And if you agree that The Joker thinks there is no such thing as morality, you would not have claimed he was an F, as the two are mutually exclusive. You can have a moral T, but you can't really have an immoral F, considering the entire thing about being an F involves making decisions based on moral values. You can have two Fs with very different values, but not one with no values at all.

    And no, F isn't just "personal vs. logical decisions." Again, there are lots of Ts who have different conceptions of "logic" just like there are a lot of Fs who have different moral values. So just because someone's actions don't seem logical to you, that doesn't mean they aren't a T, and just because someone doesn't fit with your idea of morality, that doesn't mean they're not an F. Never mind the fact that people can do both at different times.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    Also Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler wouldn't have scored F on a random bullshit test as well. F is about making personal decisions and T about logical decisions, that's the core thing.
    Truth.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    Implying that Ts are selfish and Fs are selfless. Yes, The Joker is a T, but that's not why. (Though I agree that his wanting to "watch the world burn" and his emphasis on the truth is part of it.) And yes, he actually was pretty logical. Not that everything one does to be a T has to be based in foolproof logic. There's a lot of stupid Ts out there who make horribly illogical decisions. For example, George W. Bush, ESTJ.
    He was logical in the development of his plans and presentation, but his actual purpose would be considered illogical and irrational, to simply burn the world. He justified his motives and purposes with rationalizations, but his motives were conceived entirely without logic, and then supported later.

    Remember the boat scene in the movie? This was one of the ways he rationalized his motive. He planted a bomb in both of the boats and gave each boat a detonator. The Joker told them that the only way out would be for one of the boats to pull the detonator and destroy the other boat, but little did they know that the game was rigged. He was trying to prove that people did not unite against a common enemy, but instead would ultimately harm those on their side to survive. In the Joker's ideal world, the people of both boats would have selflessly refused and instead of the people being accredited with killing the other people, the Joker would be credited for all of their deaths, showing that there is a distinct division between Good and Bad. He was trying to prove that the world should be burned because of how vile it truly is.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nights and Days View Post
    Truth.
    False. Let me repeat:

    F isn't just "personal vs. logical decisions." Again, there are lots of Ts who have different conceptions of "logic" just like there are a lot of Fs who have different moral values. So just because someone's actions don't seem logical to you, that doesn't mean they aren't a T, and just because someone doesn't fit with your idea of morality, that doesn't mean they're not an F. Never mind the fact that people can do both at different times.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    He was logical in the development of his plans and presentation, but his actual purpose would be considered illogical and irrational, to simply burn the world. He justified his motives and purposes with rationalizations, but his motives were conceived entirely without logic, and then supported later.
    Doesn't matter. The fact that he rationalized them at all is enough. Again, what you or I consider logical, not every T would consider logical. Just as what one F may consider immoral, not every F would. You have to look at it from The Joker's perspective, and when you do, it is clear that what he was doing was logical to him. Burning the world made sense in his mind, because he didn't consider the harm it would cause to be a relevant factor.

    And you are completely wrong about the boat scene. In The Joker's ideal world, one of the boats would have blown up the other. Remember how annoyed he was, "You have to do everything yourself," he said angrily when they didn't. Again, he was trying to prove that morals would be tossed aside and that everyone is like him underneath their moral pretensions, not that there is some kind of division between good and bad and that the world is morally reprehensible and deserved to be destroyed. All he wanted was chaos because it's "fair."

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
    Doesn't matter. The fact that he rationalized them at all is enough. Again, what you or I consider logical, not every T would consider logical. Just as what one F may consider immoral, not every F would. You have to look at it from The Joker's perspective, and when you do, it is clear that what he was doing was logical to him. Burning the world made sense in his mind, because he didn't consider the harm it would cause to be a relevant factor.
    The guy's a psychopath with schizotypal features, his motives were entirely irrational and were simply well placed together by T. The Joker is a T, but he isn't logical or rational, he just uses logic to justify his twisted views, which he would have accepted/believed without the T logic anyhow. It just so happens he was a T and could dress up his schizotypal worldview with logical explanations. It's molding evidence to fit his own view rather than molding his view based on evidence.

    PS: Every decision or idea someone makes or contemplates seems logical to them, no matter T or F.

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