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  1. #1
    Member nightwatcher's Avatar
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    Default NJ order and NP chaos in fiction and reality

    It was pointed out that there were too many ENTPs in my “Dark Tower” characters entry. Perhaps, but the main thrust of evil in that and other Stephen King fantasy epics is ENTPish. Walter o’Dim (who is the same antagonist, Flagg, in “The Stand”, another Good vs. Evil epic) and The Red King, are both what D&Ders call “chaotic evil”. Their evil is more about the process (P) of creating discord than the ultimate aim of taking over and installing a new and improved system (NJ). When ENTP trickster Walter o’Dim/Flagg succeeds in wrecking a world, he gets bored and moves on.

    Compare these NP villains to the main forces of evil in our world from the 20th century to the present, who are “lawful evil” ideological monsters with a decidedly more NJ flavor. Their evil is more about the end result (J) of installing systems of repressive order (eg, the Nazis, religious fundamenalists, communists, etc.), which they see as “good”. Today’s “visionary” terrorists may appear at first glance as agents of chaos, but the chaos they create is contained within their “end justifies the means” goal of installing fundamentalist theocracies. They see themselves as fighting against chaos (eg, their view of the West as “decandant” because of its “tolerance” for homosexuals). Likewise Hitler and the Nazis believed they were fighting a justifiable war against the “chaos” of racial integration, among other things.

    So why is NP “chaotic evil” more prominent in fiction than in reality, where the most dangerous collective forces usually seem to fall under the heading of NJ “lawful evil” (not that its agents are all NJs; NPs fight on the side of lawful evil in our world as well)?

  2. #2
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Perhaps, because realistically, a force that drives to instate new order, driven by a goal, is stronger and more cohesive than a force that just wants to create chaos?

    On the flip side, when it comes to 'visionaries,' they may have jumped off the slippery slope, but they still had a goal, an aim, which may be admirable. Someone just trying to sow discord just because they're 'evil' isn't going to get any sympathy from the audience. Realistically, ENPs may create a little chaos to make things more entertaining, but they wouldn't go to the destructive extent that an ENP villain would go to, simply because there's no reason for it.

    I'd say what you describe would be SJ tendencies instated with NJ drastic measures -- trying to return the present to the past through 'creative' means. I don't know... it seems strange how these collective forces are automatically typed 'NP' or 'NJ.' What about the evil sensors? Surely they have to be there.

    The difference between the prevalence is to what's tolerable in fiction as to what's true to reality. 'P' chaos makes for an easy target as being 'evil' in fiction while the need for 'J' order would more realistically drive people to repeatedly do 'evil' because in that case, they actually have a cause for what they do.
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  3. #3
    Member nightwatcher's Avatar
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    I think someone in here (jokingly?) typed God as an INTJ, which makes trickster ENTP Satan a perfect counterpart. Whatever our conscious religious views, we are all unconsciously, mythologically, influenced to project that figure onto people we view as evil, for instance imagining that terrorists have no agenda other than to wreck havoc because it’s fun, forgetting that they are ideologically motivated. A good example I recall is M. Scott Peck naming evil as “laziness” in his Road Less Travelled books. Overall his picture of evil struck me as very shadow ENTPish. It’s worth noting that Peck typed himself an INTJ, and he’s probably a One on the Enneagram, which is essentially the J type; so it figures that his demons would be more P.

    This kind of shadow ENTP bad guy serves well in fiction, and can be viewed as an archetype of the psyche, but I can’t tag it on any collective forces in the “real” world that I most dread, even if it exerts an unconscious influence. They are much more J than P: organized, proactive, highly motivated, always having an agenda for “improving” the world and always viewing themselves as the good guys. “A world without sin,” like in the movie Serenity; and of course this site’s beloved Death Notes series with its likely INTJ, Light, “cleaning up the world” by ridding it of evil, influenced by a trickster ENTP god with a totally different agenda.

    While all types of people serve all causes and fight on all sides in wars, I would name the collective bodies most likely to bring down civilization at some point as shadow NJ visionaries, which doesn’t mean that the leaders themselves are necessarily this type (I seem to recall Bin-Ladin being typed as an INFP somewhere, and no doubt all different types become terrorists). Yet both the leaders and followers are probably in part under the influence of a trickster shadow ENTP that causes them to see their own shadows in their “evil-doer” enemies. So it may be that the ENTP wins after all by manipulating the NJ forces.
    "Space was big, and the boys from Earth were awed despite themselves by the things they found there: but worse, their science was in a mess. Every race they met on their way through the Core had a star drive based on a different theory. All those theories worked, even when they ruled out one another’s basic assumptions. You could travel between the stars, it began to seem, by assuming anything.”

    —M. John Harrison, “Light”

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightwatcher View Post
    It was pointed out that there were too many ENTPs in my "Dark Tower" characters entry. Perhaps, but the main thrust of evil in that and other Stephen King fantasy epics is ENTPish.
    King writes like other ENTP friends I have. (He accumulates lots of trivial and dances around it, his dialog is usually impeccable because he listens to those details and knows how it plays out.) So seeing him invest in ENTP characters is no real surprise.

    I can see Walter as ENTP easily (although the Red King -- because of his machinations and aura -- always read as "J" to me). Walter is definitely the maverick who mucks and fiddles with things to best advantage; he seems to even take delight in his ability to bend a situation to his advantage. (it's what ruins him in the end too... he played the game just a LITTLE too long, when the margin of error was thread-thin.)

    Likewise, I agreed with Eddie's ENTP reading too. Very good. Eddie focuses more on Ne + Fe, though, and doesn't use his Ti as much as Walter does.

    Flagg? I wasn't really sure. Again, though, the same crass rogue who takes situations and plays along, not needing to control things because he trusts his ability to improvise. [Note: Yes, they're tied together as "the same" but I didn't feel like they were based on the writing in The Stand vs The Dark Tower... hence the distinction.]

    Sorry that this digresses from your NP/NJ analysis, but I wanted to offer support for your Dark Tower ENTP reads (I skimmed the list and didn't see much anything worth extensive debate, just a few minor quibbles).

    So why is NP "chaotic evil" more prominent in fiction than in reality, where the most dangerous collective forces usually seem to fall under the heading of NJ "lawful evil" (not that its agents are all NJs; NPs fight on the side of lawful evil in our world as well)?
    Well, pretty obviously P contributes to "chaos" and J to "order." J is more apt to rise to positions of prominence because of the desire for control (whereas P's aspire to "freedom to act"), and it's the large scale wielding of power that attracts the most attention in our news and is organized enough to implement evil on a large scale. P is so more apt to just flex with situations and maximize the most evil it can within a given circumstance... which means it is at the mercy of the chaotic flux in terms of opportunity to do mischief. And it's more apt to do things on the small-fry, personal level.

    I don't even know if you can rule out SJ and SP from this conversation, however; SFPs are "chaos" by nature, SFJs "order" by nature. STP's tend to have order in their chaos, STJs are very orderly.

    I think P vs J is more influential, the N less so.

    I think someone in here (jokingly?) typed God as an INTJ, which makes trickster ENTP Satan a perfect counterpart.
    Oh yes, that... That's probably a better reading scripturally for Satan than how modern conservative xianity tends to label him. The "satan" was always an adversary -- someone who throws a wrench into the system as part of making the system work better. Even like a prosecuting attorney, out to push on people and see what they're made of. For some reason, over time, this migrated into this J-style "machinator" who has legions to his disposal and plots everyone out so carefully without error...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    I'd flavor God as INTP; Satan as INFP.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I'd flavor God as INTP; Satan as INFP.
    But that would make God the master designer who shrugs whenever his children cry and tells them to get over it (bland-hearted flake), while Satan fights passionately for the good of humanity and for the little guy to be heard?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But that would make God the master designer who shrugs whenever his children cry and tells them to get over it (bland-hearted flake), while Satan fights passionately for the good of humanity and for the little guy to be heard?
    Jennifer!

    Those examples are somewhat dramatic, in terms of behaviors offered by the respective types.

    Within the context of Western Christianity, God is an architect; he must be able to efficiently perceive (without apparent judgment) the interrelationships between all possible creative ends. A mind uncomfortable with uncertainty (such that free will mitigates) would likely work to control the destinies of his progeny. The expression of which would be the elimination of faith, as a psycho-spiritual currency.

    Within this same religious dynamic, Satan is a bullshitter of the highest order. To effectively manipulate, you must identify weakness. To identify weakness, you must understand the perceived strengths of your targets. People desire. Lucifer is the embodiment of desire.

    Of course, this all open to scrutiny and application of personal bias. I could be wrong. (I'm never wrong... )

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Jennifer! Those examples are somewhat dramatic, in terms of behaviors offered by the respective types.
    Oh. I thought we were still talking comic books.

    Within the context of Western Christianity, God is an architect; he must be able to efficiently perceive (without apparent judgment) the interrelationships between all possible creative ends. A mind uncomfortable with uncertainty (such that free will mitigates) would likely work to control the destinies of his progeny. The expression of which would be the elimination of faith, as a psycho-spiritual currency.
    Perhaps that is partly the theological view, but not as practiced... and it differs from sect to sect. The large bulk of evangelicals worship a god who is (1) always in control, (2) is clearly definable, (3) someone who is their "soulmate" in essence [so much for the INTP, who is not "personal" enough], (4) someone who is Republican and conservative in his fiscal policies but hawkish on war... and so on.

    This is why some INTPs can believe in a Christian-styled God... but few feel comfortable within the confines of conservative American Christianity.

    Within this same religious dynamic, Satan is a bullshitter of the highest order. To effectively manipulate, you must identify weakness. To identify weakness, you must understand the perceived strengths of your targets. People desire. Lucifer is the embodiment of desire.
    Are you saying FineLine's a bullshitter? *gasp*

    Of course, this all open to scrutiny and application of personal bias. I could be wrong. (I'm never wrong... )
    Yeah. So Satan has pointy ears, huh? Does ANYONE in this thread look like he might have pointy ears? *hmmm*
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    conservative American Christianity.


    Yeah. So Satan has pointy ears, huh? Does ANYONE in this thread look like he might have pointy ears? *hmmm*
    Conservative Christian culture tends to gravitate more towards the lad 'twixt the details...

  10. #10
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    If we look at deism, I'd type God as INTP.

    Either that, or INFJ. God couldn't be an INTJ -- if that was the case, God would have forseen that humanity would just be a wrench in the works and would have left that element out of creation entirely. Too many cooks spoil the soup, as they always say.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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