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Thread: Game of Thrones / G.R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" (tv & book series)

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    Oberyn is the most ESFP motherfucker on that show. If you can't see this guy bleeding SeFi all over every scene he's in, you're just not paying attention. It's just silly.

    You people's typings are...not very good. Sorry.


    Baelish and Arya are poster children for INTJ. Watch the way they absorb the implications of their situations until they become self-perception, then strategically manipulate it for maximal personal gain.

    I mean, Baelish is basically Nietzschean philosophy personified. What planet are you people typing from where you get ENTP? Are you serious?


    Quote Originally Posted by Kora View Post
    Wouldn't Eddard Stark be an ISTJ?
    Yes, thankfully *someone* is paying attention!

    Also commonly mistyped is Tywin Lannister, another brilliant ISTJ that the entire internet assumes has to be INTJ because he's smart and Ss are dumb or whatever.


    More problems with you people's typings:

    --Tyrion (INTP) doesn't turn into an extrovert just because his circumstances have forced him to become socially competent to survive. His principles are Kantian Ti to the core and they're clearly his main priority. (He just drinks and screws around a lot because he's depressed, obviously.)

    --Jaime (ENTP) doesn't become an S just because he's good at physical combat with swords. He was trained from birth and had natural talent and money and resources behind him; that doesn't make him ESTP.

    --Robb Stark is not an ESTJ. You're correctly reading Te and Ne, but you got them in the wrong order--he's a young and naive ENFP, and his story arc is largely about how young, naive idealism doesn't actually win in a harsh, brutal world. (For comparison, Stannis Baratheon is an actual ESTJ. Robb is much more similar to fellow ENFP Renley Baratheon--note that blind idealism helped lead both to losing wars.)

    --A bunch of you are getting Ned and Catelyn backwards because you don't realize Si+Fi is not ISFJ and Si+Ti is not ISTJ. Ned is the ISTJ and Catelyn the ISFJ; she's just a hardass who will fuck you up to protect her clan. That doesn't disqualify her from being an F.

    --Cersei is not an ENTJ; you're making the common mistake of confusing ESTP and ENTJ because they're both dominant and aggressive. (One of the most Se > Ni scenes in the series is when Baelish, an INTJ, tries to subtly threaten Cersei, an ESTP, by hinting that he knows about her incestuous affair with her brother, saying, "knowledge is power" [Ni], and then she has the guards grab him and threatens to slit his throat and replies "No, power is power!" [Se]). To my knowledge, the only female ENTJ in the series is Olenna Tyrell.

    --Joffrey was a psychotic ISTP who didn't understand or pay attention to the world around him enough to realize he couldn't just shit on everyone all the time and get away with it. (You can argue for ESTP here but I think he was just too oblivious and non-reactive to his political surroundings.)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Baelish and Arya are poster children for INTJ.

    What planet are you people typing from?
    I agree with Littlefinger.

    But why is Arya's Ni and Te stronger than her Se?

    She's a very adept fighter, showing great interest in swordfighting and horseriding and quickly excels in both, has a great hunger for excitement and adventure, not a long term planner but quick on her feet, as well as a very pragmatic thinker. (The only characteristic I can see her sharing with INTJ's.)

    Also commonly mistyped is Tywin Lannister, another brilliant ISTJ that the entire internet assumes has to be INTJ because he's smart and Ss are dumb or whatever.
    You think? He seems so utterly focused on pragmaticality and efficiency and removed from any Feeling function that I always figured Te dom.

    --Jaime (ENTP) doesn't become an S just because he's good at physical combat with swords. He was trained from birth and had natural talent and money and resources behind him; that doesn't make him ESTP.
    Where do you see Ne? He explicitly says that the only time he feels alive is when fucking or fighting.
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    Arya's fundamentally a creature of impulse with some undercurrents of steely determination, I think. I'd go ESFP > INTJ for her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Arya's fundamentally a creature of impulse with some undercurrents of steely determination, I think. I'd go ESFP > INTJ for her.
    I agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    I agree with Littlefinger.

    But why is Arya's Ni and Te stronger than her Se?

    She's a very adept fighter, showing great interest in swordfighting and horseriding and quickly excels in both, has a great hunger for excitement and adventure, not a long term planner but quick on her feet, as well as a very pragmatic thinker. (The only characteristic I can see her sharing with INTJ's.)
    Because functions are not defined by surface characteristics. Arya didn't choose the skill sets she had to learn and she's focused primarily on survival and her personal vision of revenge on the people who have effectively ruined her life. The kid is like 10 years old and has a list of people she intends to kill that she recites every night to make sure she never forgets, and she's not a long-term planner?

    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    You think? He seems so utterly focused on pragmaticality and efficiency and removed from any Feeling function that I always figured Te dom.
    Nope, he's very much aware of what he doesn't know and what he can and can't do. He knows all the strategies necessary to govern the kingdom and he doesn't like to change that strategy if he doesn't have to, because he's self-aware enough to know that tactical unfamiliarity is his enemy. He continually loses battles to the more tactically bold Robb Stark, but is careful and patient enough to win the larger and more important war anyway. He doesn't share more of his thoughts than he has to; it's just common to mistake IxTJs for Te doms sometimes because they communicate with the outside world in such a Te-oriented way. Remember that with introverts, when you interact with them, you are most likely speaking to the general's aide, not the general himself--he stays behind in the tent. (@ first pointed this out to me.)

    Also he is not removed from Fi; it's deeply important to him to carry on his family name and to maintain his particular idea of honor (which may not be the same as most people's.) He has always felt insulted that the gods gave him a dwarf for a son and he worries deeply for the legacy of his family name, which is a large part of why he cares so deeply for Jaime. The attachment to his family name and its long-term legacy is also a big deal for Si, because a world without his family would strike him as deeply unfamiliar (and thus unsettling) and would lead him to feel like he'd failed in his duty to history and family (which is a big deal for Si doms.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    Where do you see Ne? He explicitly says that the only time he feels alive is when fucking or fighting.
    But why does he feel alive when he is doing these things? You are simply ascribing stereotypes to surface behaviors, which is not the true motivation.

    Why did Jaime learn to derive pleasure from these skills? How did his environment lead him to focus on them in the first place?


    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Arya's fundamentally a creature of impulse with some undercurrents of steely determination, I think. I'd go ESFP > INTJ for her.
    A creature of impulse who recites her mental list of people to kill every night so that she can focus her efforts intently on achieving a long-term revenge plot on specific people who have ruined her happiness and security, to make a moral point out of brutally punishing them in the distant future. Sure.

    No offense but ESFP for Arya is an abysmal read. I saw someone suggest ISFJ and even that, having no functions in common with INTJ, is still not as bad a guess as ESFP! XD

    If you guys focused on the Ni and Fi aspects of Arya and read her as ISFP, I would chalk it up to just misreading the dominant/tertiary function orders, which is a common and relatively easy mistake to make...but the fact that you think her defining characteristics are Se-oriented just shows how badly you misunderstand the basic premise of the show, that anyone who is not under direct protection from others has to learn physical combat for survival, and that doesn't just magically turn them all into Se doms!

    HINT: There are numerous different practical, emotional, and psychological reasons for learning physical combat, especially in the mostly-realistic medieval GoT universe. "S/he places highest cognitive value on the immediate sensations of present physical/empirical reality" (Translation: "S/he is Se dominant") is not the only reason somebody might learn how to scrap.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Because functions are not defined by surface characteristics. Arya didn't choose the skill sets she had to learn and she's focused primarily on survival and her personal vision of revenge on the people who have effectively ruined her life. The kid is like 10 years old and has a list of people she intends to kill that she recites every night to make sure she never forgets, and she's not a long-term planner?

    Really?
    She was athletic, a skilled horserider and fighter even before those skills became necessary to her. In her days at Winterfell Sansa was always shocked that Arya would rather learn to fight than behave like a lady.

    She's resourceful, a great improviser, quick and dexterous. That might not be what Se actually is, but all of Arya's most defining characteristics are commonly associated with SP's. You didn't give any examples of her Ni or Te either.

    No, that isn't a long-term plan at all. It's a kill list. She hasn't thought about how she would actually go about it. That's a desire for revenge, not NiTe.


    Nope, he's very much aware of what he doesn't know and what he can and can't do. He knows all the strategies necessary to govern the kingdom and he doesn't like to change that strategy if he doesn't have to, because he's self-aware enough to know that tactical unfamiliarity is his enemy. He continually loses battles to the more tactically bold Robb Stark, but is careful and patient enough to win the larger and more important war anyway. He doesn't share more of his thoughts than he has to; it's just common to mistake IxTJs for Te doms sometimes because they communicate with the outside world in such a Te-oriented way. Remember that with introverts, when you interact with them, you are most likely speaking to the general's aide, not the general himself--he stays behind in the tent. (@ first pointed this out to me.)

    Also he is not removed from Fi; it's deeply important to him to carry on his family name and to maintain his particular idea of honor (which may not be the same as most people's.) He has always felt insulted that the gods gave him a dwarf for a son and he worries deeply for the legacy of his family name, which is a large part of why he cares so deeply for Jaime. The attachment to his family name and its long-term legacy is also a big deal for Si, because a world without his family would strike him as deeply unfamiliar (and thus unsettling) and would lead him to feel like he'd failed in his duty to history and family (which is a big deal for Si doms.)
    I can see this.


    But why does he feel alive when he is doing these things? You are simply ascribing stereotypes to surface behaviors, which is not the true motivation.
    That's just his nature. He's a ravenous man and only cares for self-gratification through sensual experiences. (At least at the beginning of the series.) He doesn't care for things in the abstract, he doesn't "connect the dots" or do any kind of external pattern recognition, he's a born fighter anchored in his body, not his mind.

    What is his motivation, then? Where's the Ne?
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    She was athletic, a skilled horserider and fighter even before those skills became necessary to her. In her days at Winterfell Sansa was always shocked that Arya would rather learn to fight than behave like a lady.
    That's just because she's a tomboy. That doesn't make her an E, or an S, or an F, or a P. She prefers to learn skills that can serve her more directly and efficiently. For instance, I have an INTJ female friend in the military because she feels the skills she learns there help make her more alert, prepared, focused, and disciplined. Is Arya learning these skills purely for entertainment, or does she find strategic value in knowing them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    She's resourceful, a great improviser, quick and dexterous. That might not be what Se actually is, but all of Arya's most defining characteristics are commonly associated with SP's. You didn't give any examples of her Ni or Te either.
    She has a particular long-term plan for what she intends to do to whom. She may be resourceful, quick, and dextrous, but when she appears to be improvising it's largely because she's drawing on specific experience and things she's already considered in her head. The wheels are always turning. She knows she's never going to be physically superior, so she'll have to learn other strategies in order to defend herself and maintain her safety. It's a function of practical necessity and strategic defense for her, not enjoyment of physical sensations for their own sake.

    Lots of things are commonly associated with SPs by people who don't understand how to read functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    No, that isn't a long-term plan at all. It's a kill list. She hasn't thought about how she would actually go about it. That's a desire for revenge, not NiTe.
    It's a desire for revenge with a specific intention to focus her mental energy on finding the resources and acquiring the skills necessary to accomplish it. She's already met the shapeshifter guy who has promised to kill for her and that's going to factor into her plans. She doesn't have all the necessary resources/skills/connections yet but she has a particular endgoal in mind and she's determined to do whatever is necessary to reach it.

    If you can't tell what Arya is planning for the long-term, then she's doing her job as an INTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    I can see this.



    That's just his nature. He's a ravenous man and only cares for self-gratification through sensual experiences. (At least at the beginning of the series.) He doesn't care for things in the abstract, he doesn't "connect the dots" or do any kind of external pattern recognition, he's a born fighter anchored in his body, not his mind.
    You don't seem to have been paying much attention to Jaime's character development throughout the third and fourth seasons. You don't think he does any kind of external pattern recognition? How about attempting to trick the marauders into believing the "Sapphire Isle" is called that because it contains half the sapphires in Westoros, rather than because of the color of its water?

    How about figuring out Tywin's real intentions in the sham trial for Tyrion and offering a counter that would allow Tyrion to live by appeasing Tywin's goals?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    What is his motivation, then? Where's the Ne?
    As the guy who cut off his hand said, he does think he's the smartest man there is. He's driven by a desire for admiration and worship; he wants to appear novel, daring, attractive, and clever. Now, of course all of these are also typical of Se doms, but I get the impression that Jaime just did the typical ENTP child thing and gravitated toward whatever things he was most talented at because that would result in the greatest number of authority figures showering him with praise and finding him interesting and thus granting him the ability to explore more interesting and exciting things and be praised and admired for his brilliance.

    He's not a swordsman because he's Se dom; he consciously developed his natural talent in sword fighting because he was talented at it and it got him approval from adults which led to greater exploratory freedom.

    He doesn't apply the typical Se tactics for intimidation. He doesn't get in people's faces and use intimidating body language; he doesn't threaten people with physical responses unless he needs to. He prefers to respond through sarcasm, proving that he's wittier than his competition and not having to go to the effort of proving his superiority in physical combat unless he finds a worthy opponent or needs to defend himself from attack.

    When he does do battle with words, he doesn't just go for the typical Se references to his superior physical stature or combat ability; he'd rather dig at people's subtle, less stated insecurities and troll them to see where their mental/emotional soft spots are. He's much more willing to do battle through words without having to prove it physically, and it only makes him that much more narcissistic that he can also prove it physically if it comes to that--but mostly he's a sarcastic smartass with a late-blooming heart of gold, and he values the clever word potentially even more than the swing of the sword.

    Also, this is my 5555th post. Woot.


    P.S.,

    Sansa Stark is so INFP it makes me want to slap someone. I can explain this one if anyone needs to hear it, but seriously, it's very clear.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Long post
    I still don't agree, but responding to all this would require more time than I have and more effort than I could muster right now.

    I'll get back tomorrow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Baelish and Arya are poster children for INTJ. Watch the way they absorb the implications of their situations until they become self-perception, then strategically manipulate it for maximal personal gain.

    I mean, Baelish is basically Nietzschean philosophy personified. What planet are you people typing from where you get ENTP? Are you serious?
    Baelish is most definitely not Nietzschean philosophy personified, and I sincerely doubt that you (or GRRM, for that matter), have actually read Nietzsche's work. Name-dropping doesn't make you smart. Baelish doesn't use te. He doesn't organize the world around him to conform to rational criteria. Compare him with Tywin, who shows you what a te user would be like in a power-player role. He doesn't create order, he thrives in disorder; he stirs things up and then uses ne and ti to pinpoint external opportunities as they arise. He doesn't impose himself on the world, he adapts to it, using fe to get in with the right people and manipulate social conditions. He's not really a planner; he's a player. He's more of a Machiavellian Prince than a Nietzschean Overman, and Machiavelli was ENTP (Famous ENTPs - CelebrityTypes.com).

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Also commonly mistyped is Tywin Lannister, another brilliant ISTJ that the entire internet assumes has to be INTJ because he's smart and Ss are dumb or whatever.
    He is an ESTJ. His te is clearly his most powerful function. Being grumpy (or even behaving like an "introvert") does not make you an introvert in Jungian terms.

    More problems with you people's typings:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    --Tyrion (INTP) doesn't turn into an extrovert just because his circumstances have forced him to become socially competent to survive. His principles are Kantian Ti to the core and they're clearly his main priority. (He just drinks and screws around a lot because he's depressed, obviously.)
    The typing I agree with, but I fail to see how Tyrion in any way exhibits Kantian principles (he's an opportunistic consequentialist, not an austere deontologist), and what that really says about his type. Stop biting off more than you can chew.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    --Jaime (ENTP) doesn't become an S just because he's good at physical combat with swords. He was trained from birth and had natural talent and money and resources behind him; that doesn't make him ESTP.
    Oh, come on. He's not an S because "he's good with swords". He is an S because he's very direct, blunt, and immediate in his communication, in a way that ne-doms certainly aren't. He is very uncomfortable with self-reflection, and doesn't particularly enjoy the abstract at all, preferring to immerse himself in the immediate physical reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    --Robb Stark is not an ESTJ. You're correctly reading Te and Ne, but you got them in the wrong order--he's a young and naive ENFP, and his story arc is largely about how young, naive idealism doesn't actually win in a harsh, brutal world. (For comparison, Stannis Baratheon is an actual ESTJ. Robb is much more similar to fellow ENFP Renley Baratheon--note that blind idealism helped lead both to losing wars.)
    I don't see much ne there. He loses not because of "blind idealism", but because he couldn't see the big picture or anticipate the actions of others, as he was too wrapped up in his own feelings. I say ISFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    --A bunch of you are getting Ned and Catelyn backwards because you don't realize Si+Fi is not ISFJ and Si+Ti is not ISTJ. Ned is the ISTJ and Catelyn the ISFJ; she's just a hardass who will fuck you up to protect her clan. That doesn't disqualify her from being an F.
    Actually, I'm quite aware of function orders, thank you. Catelyn uses te-fi and Ned uses fe-ti. Catelyn has difficulty dealing with her own feelings, but is good at staying rational. She would never have screwed up in the way Ned did, she's not idealistic enough, she sees the world very much as it is, and she has a talent for organization. Ned's severe lack of te was why he made such a lousy hand of the king. Do you really think he's the same type as Tywin?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    --Cersei is not an ENTJ; you're making the common mistake of confusing ESTP and ENTJ because they're both dominant and aggressive. (One of the most Se > Ni scenes in the series is when Baelish, an INTJ, tries to subtly threaten Cersei, an ESTP, by hinting that he knows about her incestuous affair with her brother, saying, "knowledge is power" [Ni], and then she has the guards grab him and threatens to slit his throat and replies "No, power is power!" [Se]). To my knowledge, the only female ENTJ in the series is Olenna Tyrell.

    --Joffrey was a psychotic ISTP who didn't understand or pay attention to the world around him enough to realize he couldn't just shit on everyone all the time and get away with it. (You can argue for ESTP here but I think he was just too oblivious and non-reactive to his political surroundings.)
    Firstly, "Knowledge is power" indicates preferences for ne, ti, and si, not ni. ni would be more "insight is power" or "ideas are power".
    Cersei is deeply self-hating, and would probably think of herself as a t user, but she isn't. She's always letting her emotions get in the way. Her thinking is unsystematic, erratic, and inscrutable. I see inferior ti, and si, making her an ESFJ. She does seem to fit the "unhealthy nurturer" archetype, like Medea.

    You are right about Joffrey being an introvert, but dead wrong about him being a t-dom (really, when does he ever sit down and think, like a ti user would?). He's ISFP. I see a lot of poorly developed fi there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    She was athletic, a skilled horserider and fighter even before those skills became necessary to her. In her days at Winterfell Sansa was always shocked that Arya would rather learn to fight than behave like a lady.

    She's resourceful, a great improviser, quick and dexterous. That might not be what Se actually is, but all of Arya's most defining characteristics are commonly associated with SP's. You didn't give any examples of her Ni or Te either.

    No, that isn't a long-term plan at all. It's a kill list. She hasn't thought about how she would actually go about it. That's a desire for revenge, not NiTe.
    Arya displays little inclination towards abstract mental reflection, but her thoughts are very organized. She is adaptable and does not attempt to organize her external world; she "goes with the flow". She has difficulty relating to other people and fitting in with social norms (inferior fe).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    Nope, he's very much aware of what he doesn't know and what he can and can't do. He knows all the strategies necessary to govern the kingdom and he doesn't like to change that strategy if he doesn't have to, because he's self-aware enough to know that tactical unfamiliarity is his enemy. He continually loses battles to the more tactically bold Robb Stark, but is careful and patient enough to win the larger and more important war anyway. He doesn't share more of his thoughts than he has to; it's just common to mistake IxTJs for Te doms sometimes because they communicate with the outside world in such a Te-oriented way. Remember that with introverts, when you interact with them, you are most likely speaking to the general's aide, not the general himself--he stays behind in the tent. (@ first pointed this out to me.)

    Also he is not removed from Fi; it's deeply important to him to carry on his family name and to maintain his particular idea of honor (which may not be the same as most people's.) He has always felt insulted that the gods gave him a dwarf for a son and he worries deeply for the legacy of his family name, which is a large part of why he cares so deeply for Jaime. The attachment to his family name and its long-term legacy is also a big deal for Si, because a world without his family would strike him as deeply unfamiliar (and thus unsettling) and would lead him to feel like he'd failed in his duty to history and family (which is a big deal for Si doms.)

    I can see this.
    Actually, I can see that too. OK. ISTJ.

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