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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It sounds to me more like you just don't like him on a visceral level, and it's coloring your perception of anything he does rather than maintaining some objectivity about the character. Seriously.
    The first part is true. But ESFP is not a label I put on things I dislike. It is merely the best four-letter description of my perception of his character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    At best, it would be one of the low-key extroverts... I don't think ESFP falls into that category.

    Much of the time you are also seeing him engaging people he is familiar with. With people he is not familiar with, they are receiving a packaged image of Nate especially in his role as the "nice gracious funeral director" that always has to do and say the right thing in order to be the "nicest, warmest, most understanding person in the world."

    But there are typically two selves -- his public face, and then the one he shows in private to his family. He is far more personal and engaged with his family, and he throws his weight around more there, and even treats himself as the pseudo-father figure, which his two siblings sometimes give him crap for. Extroverts by nature typically are themselves in the external face; the difficulty comes in cultivating an internal self, that's the one they typically have to work at and bring into sync.
    Well, that is your perception and concepts against mine. Obviously, I think mine are more accurate, not to mention more fresh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Already did.
    Five years ago, when you had seen five episodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But thanks for graciously offering me your permission.
    You are very welcome.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I am not sure. He usually makes stupid decisions, is impulsive when he should think first, indecisive when she should act. He is understanding only when it suits him, which reeks of insincerity. He has no plan. I dislike his face, his way of speaking. There are really very few scenes in which I do like him.
    I can't stand him either, and I agree with this- especially the bolded. I seem to remember liking him at first, a bit, but by the end of the series I found his character repulsive.

    It's been a couple years since I watched the show, but I seem to remember thinking that he was at least Pe aux if not Pe dom. He needs things on the outside to define him- not in a Je way, but in the gluttonous and hedonistic Pe way. It's a trait of narcissism for someone to be able to stop "caring" on a dime and that's exactly how he is. He just uses people. He thinks he cares about them- but it's more like something he's trying on in a mirror than actually caring. He's not in touch with his own feelings at all, so he's not capable of authentically caring about others. He's just impulsively bouncing from one thing that he thinks will feel good to the next. Once someone isn't useful to him- which is to say, the 'potential' of being committed to them no longer seems like it will bring happiness- he couldn't care less how much he hurts them (regardless of how much he previously claimed to "love" them). And that's what Pe dominance looks like when at the mercy of unconscious impulses (when the unconscious impulses hold most or all of the strings): gluttonously experiencing the external world and rationalizing away any obligation to others.

    So anyway, I agree with Pe dominance- specifically because of the way he uses people (Je dom/aux can use people too, it just looks different)- but I don't have much opinion outside that. Though he does seem more N than S to me.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  3. #43
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The first part is true. But ESFP is not a label I put on things I dislike. It is merely the best four-letter description of my perception of his character.
    I never said you did slap an ESFP label on things you don't like; my comment is that your visceral dislike for the character is resulting in a distortion of perception, as best as I can tell. I have to be aware of my own as well and take that into account.

    Well, that is your perception and concepts against mine. Obviously, I think mine are more accurate, not to mention more fresh.
    Obviously.
    (Or you would change and accommodate my opinion.)

    Five years ago, when you had seen five episodes.
    I meant what I posted earlier this morning, that you had such a strong reaction to.

    You are very welcome.
    You are a gentleman and a scholar.

    Okay, I can't keep doing this with a straight face, at this point I'm laughing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I can't stand him either, and I agree with this- especially the bolded. I seem to remember liking him at first, a bit, but by the end of the series I found his character repulsive.

    It's been a couple years since I watched the show, but I seem to remember thinking that he was at least Pe aux if not Pe dom. He needs things on the outside to define him- not in a Je way, but in the gluttonous and hedonistic Pe way. It's a trait of narcissism for someone to be able to stop "caring" on a dime and that's exactly how he is. He just uses people. He thinks he cares about them- but it's more like something he's trying on in a mirror than actually caring. He's not in touch with his own feelings at all, so he's not capable of authentically caring about others. He's just impulsively bouncing from one thing that he thinks will feel good to the next. Once someone isn't useful to him- which is to say, the 'potential' of being committed to them no longer seems like it will bring happiness- he couldn't care less how much he hurts them (regardless of how much he previously claimed to "love" them). And that's what Pe dominance looks like when at the mercy of unconscious impulses (when the unconscious impulses hold most or all of the strings): gluttonously experiencing the external world and rationalizing away any obligation to others.

    So anyway, I agree with Pe dominance- specifically because of the way he uses people (Je dom/aux can use people too, it just looks different)- but I don't have much opinion outside that.
    Just to make things amusing, I think this kind of behavior shows up most easily in the FPs (which includes ESFP and INFP). Anyway, I agree he's not a Je Dom/Aux.

    Maybe that's what I was responding to, especially later in the series when it becomes more obvious -- that he cares less about people and more about himself at core, he's using people in order to figure himself out and "see what works" for him. It's a form of usury. At that later stage, once Brenda got out of her sex-addiction funk, I felt like she actually was genuinely trying to reach out and connect and just being terrible at it because she just didn't know how, nor had had any real relationships that she could use as a template. And for a long time, I think she had been looking to Nate to teach her this, but he no longer cared to / was unable to since he himself only possessed an image of it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #44
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think he tries, is all. He's hugely flawed but he's trying.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I never said you did slap an ESFP label on things you don't like; my comment is that your visceral dislike for the character is resulting in a distortion of perception, as best as I can tell. I have to be aware of my own as well and take that into account.
    My dislike is a result of my perception. There is also an important difference between perception and expressed judgement. What I said above is not a complete picture of how I see Nate, but, as requested, an attempt to explain why I dislike him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I meant what I posted earlier this morning, that you had such a strong reaction to.
    Since you thought my typing was so terribly off, I was interested in which letters you prefer. Anyway, it probably comes down to different ideas of how the respective types 'appear'. The reason I reacted strongly to your post is that it seemed to me you reacted strongly to mine, as if you felt personally attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Okay, I can't keep doing this with a straight face, at this point I'm laughing.
    I'm glad. Typing fictional character should not turn into serious business.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Maybe that's what I was responding to, especially later in the series when it becomes more obvious -- that he cares less about people and more about himself at core, he's using people in order to figure himself out and "see what works" for him. It's a form of usury. At that later stage, once Brenda got out of her sex-addiction funk, I felt like she actually was genuinely trying to reach out and connect and just being terrible at it because she just didn't know how, nor had had any real relationships that she could use as a template. And for a long time, I think she had been looking to Nate to teach her this, but he no longer cared to / was unable to since he himself only possessed an image of it.
    He only possessed an image of it, and every time he thought he had found its living correlation, it turned to dust in his hands. Brenda was great until she lied in his face about her writing being fiction and he realized she HAD fucked the neighborhood teens. Where are you gonna go with that? Kinda late for her to get all sincere on him. He just seems to get one slap-down after another, and then he croaks. Oh, the nihilism. Gotta love it. So unapologetically bleak.

    When Keith turned into a mommy, omg, now that was annoying.

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Since you thought my typing was so terribly off, I was interested in which letters you prefer. Anyway, it probably comes down to different ideas of how the respective types 'appear'. The reason I reacted strongly to your post is that it seemed to me you reacted strongly to mine, as if you felt personally attacked.
    Not really personally attacked, but probably my typical frustration with participating in type read threads. Which is why I avoid them.

    I'm only really here because this happens to be one of my favorite shows ever.

    I'm glad. Typing fictional character should not turn into serious business.
    I couldn't agree more.

    (BTW, can you pull that curtain aside? I can't get a good bead on you from the telephone pole I just climbed outside your residence.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    He only possessed an image of it, and every time he thought he had found its living correlation, it turned to dust in his hands. Brenda was great until she lied in his face about her writing being fiction and he realized she HAD fucked the neighborhood teens. Where are you gonna go with that? Kinda late for her to get all sincere on him. He just seems to get one slap-down after another, and then he croaks. Oh, the nihilism. Gotta love it. So unapologetically bleak.
    That last bit is one of my loves for the show. I've seen so much kowtowing to sentiment and such a lack of balls in much TV writing... well, the show never tried to make everyone likeable nor provided them with the perfect (or endurably perfect) life. It didn't even try to pretty all the storylines up and find the kind of typical closure much writers provide in terms of plot and situation. So much remained gray.

    When Keith turned into a mommy, omg, now that was annoying.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Not really personally attacked, but probably my typical frustration with participating in type read threads. Which is why I avoid them.

    I'm only really here because this happens to be one of my favorite shows ever.
    INFP then? ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (BTW, can you pull that curtain aside jalousie up? I can't get a good bead on you from the telephone pole I just climbed outside your residence.)
    Certainly. I'm the dark-haired one with the thorn in his side.

  9. #49
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    INFP then?
    I think so, but I'm willing to agree on the FP (so we can blame Nate on them) and lay the rest aside, in the spirit of typological goodwill.

    Certainly. I'm the dark-haired one with the thorn in his side.


    Now I am suspecting a setup.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Now I am suspecting a setup.


    It's not.

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