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  1. #61
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Your argument is weak though. I myself was already in leadership positions by that age, so I think it's really about the individual. The whole point is that the ideal, the vision, can be such an overriding factor that it engages someone beyond all of their natural tendency or predisposition.
    you keep talking like being in leadership positions (good for you btw, seriously) and being assertive/willing to stand up for your strong ideals is even comparable to living a life of constant conflict, military action and a constant need to stay strong and responsive to the external world at all times. Joan of Arc was a lot more than just a strong leader who stood up for her ideals. that's the point I've been trying to make. she was probably a fucking ferocious adversary either as a commander, a political figurehead or even as a 19 year old, uneducated defendant of a crime without a lawyer who had to oppose several 40+ year old educated clergymen and the weight of the catholic church. sure, Joan of Arc's ideals were very INFP-ish, but if you look at what she actually did in the real world, her natural skill set of talents in many ways is the opposite of an INFP's.


    *sigh*
    You have missed the point, dear sir. Hearing God's voice, the vision, can be such an overriding factor that it engages someone beyond all of their natural tendency or predisposition.
    no, madame, it doesn't. it does not magically turn an INFP into an extroverted, aggressive, force of nature (only Te can do that lol and that doesn't generally happen until the INFP is in their 40s-60s, not a 17).
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  2. #62
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    you keep talking like being in leadership positions (good for you btw, seriously) and being assertive/willing to stand up for your strong ideals is even comparable to living a life of constant conflict, military action and a constant need to stay strong and responsive to the external world at all times. Joan of Arc was a lot more than just a strong leader who stood up for her ideals. that's the point I've been trying to make. she was probably a fucking ferocious adversary either as a commander, a political figurehead or even as a 19 year old, uneducated defendant of a crime without a lawyer who had to oppose several 40+ year old educated clergymen and the weight of the catholic church. sure, Joan of Arc's ideals were very INFP-ish, but if you look at what she actually did in the real world, her natural skill set of talents in many ways is the opposite of an INFP's.
    Well she was dead by the age of 19, so hardly time for an ENFP to develop Te either.
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  3. #63
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    She was a mad person who has somehow gained followers through the rhetoric of her delusions. And just like most of these successful persons who had illusions of grandeur, these people who are so far removed from present reality(Ni dom, Tertiary Ti), she must be no other than INFJ. Like Jesus. Unlike Ne-types, who actually acknowledge the difference between fantasy and reality. Like Ni-types, who invest their time on uncommon vision and takes it seriously.

  4. #64
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Well she was dead by the age of 19, so hardly time for an ENFP to develop Te either.
    exactly, that's my point. even for an ENFP, she had unusually strong Te, it's just more within the realm of possibility. an ENFP with strong Te at age 17 isn't unheard of, but an INFP with strong Te at age 17 is (INFPs lack the aggression and action oriented mindset that young ENFPs with strong Te have)
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  5. #65
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post



    no, madame, it doesn't. it does not magically turn an INFP into an extroverted, aggressive, force of nature (only Te can do that lol and that doesn't generally happen until the INFP is in their 40s-60s, not a 17).
    You'd be surprised.

  6. #66
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    One of the biggest misconception about Joan of Arc is that she was an idiosincratic dreamer who was a loner with the head in the clouds and was different. While it seems more that she was a bubbly and normal girl, a people person with a lot of energy, kinda rebellious but in an outright way, not an imaginative and reclusive way. She did not seem really idealist either, she was very ethical, but she was not big idea oriented, she just wanted to serve France, serve the king, and expulse the english. Actually, she was ESFP.

    One other big misconception is that an IFP must wait to be 60 years old to start using Te, and that an EFP must wait until 30 to start using Te. The truth is that we all use the 8 functions to some degree. But IFP are Te inferior, meaning that they need a lot of balance to take control of their environment in a logical and impersonal way, and usually fail to do it. And this is true at every stages oftheir life. While EFP are puerile Te user, meaning that they can quite easily be bossy, assertive and controling, but are unpredictable and don't follow easily through a stable and steady plan. Also, this is true at every stage of their life.


    Obviously, Joan of Arc was in the second case. But I think she was ESFP, the voice she heared was her inferior Ni.
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  7. #67
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    You'd be surprised.
    it's possible, but I doubt it. even 6 months or so ago, I would have thought so, but much of what I initially thought was INFP behavior is much more ENFP. I've known several INFPs IRL and not once have I seen the kind aggressive behavior and energy in them that is present in the ENFP with strong Fi and Te. they have plenty of passion, but with the INFP it's like still waters running deep and they tend to have a VERY difficult time consistently making things happen in the real world (ENFPs struggle with this too, but INFPs struggle with it even more). with ENFPs with strong Te on the other hand, it can be like a fucking tidal wave. they have a lot more energy to allocate to Joan of Arc-ish pursuits
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  8. #68
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    exactly, that's my point. even for an ENFP, she had unusually strong Te, it's just more within the realm of possibility. an ENFP with strong Te at age 17 isn't unheard of, but an INFP with strong Te at age 17 is (INFPs lack the aggression and action oriented mindset that young ENFPs with strong Te have)
    But come on Elfboy, your argument is based on conjecture alone - you have no idea how her personality manifested in real life. It's OK to speculate but to hold onto your opinion so tenaciously here is illogical. You're just projecting qualities you admire (many that you believe you possess) onto a fantasy ideation of what you imagine she must have been like.

    I don't know what type she was, and based on my own knowledge of myself, I say INFP is still possible.

    Could she have been ENFP? Sure.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #69
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But come on Elfboy, your argument is based on conjecture alone - you have no idea how her personality manifested in real life. It's OK to speculate but to hold onto your opinion so tenaciously here is illogical. You're just projecting qualities you admire (many that you believe you possess) onto a fantasy ideation of what you imagine she must have been like.
    I don't know what type she was, and based on my own knowledge of myself, I say INFP is still possible.
    Could she have been ENFP? Sure.
    none of my argument has been about her personality at all. it's all about what she did. she was a revolutionary figurehead and a military commander and obviously would have needed to use much more Te than a 17 year old INFP would be capable of (for the record, I actually like INFPs more than ENFPs and was guilty of projecting in precisely the opposite direction until a few months ago)
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  10. #70
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Many saints were mentally Ill. Kinda hard to accurately ascribe type in those cases IMHO.
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